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Max Cushioned Shoes for Fast Days, Minimalist for easy/long days
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Now that I am back at some semblance of running I have been thinking about the entire spectrum of shoes available to us these days and how to best use them in rotation.

One thing about minimalist/firm shoes is that they don't allow for much cheating. If your form breaks down, there is no padding left to cheat through the run. When I got back to running, all I could run in was New Balance Minimus trail or Vibrams, because I had the best feel of the ground as I have a loss of feeling in my left leg due to a disc/nerve injury.

Like catching a football bare handed or in thin wide receiver gloves, I am much better at catching a football with minimalist gloves than with big padded mittens on. My initial running was at really slow paces last year (like 7-8kph jogging on the treadmill). But in the hard shoes I had a good feel of the ground and what my feet were doing. If I got back into Hokas for "padding' I would lose coordination and would have difficulty running as I lost that hard contact with the ground....its l was like fumbling a football with mittens on.

In any case, I am running faster and faster now and doing OK amount of mileage a year down the road.

What I am finding is that when I run really fast for me it does not matter what shoes I am in because the forces are high enough that I am making a more firm contact with the ground. When I run slow or easy, I am running better in hard shoes because I can feel the ground better.

But I started thinking about it....in general, when I see people running fast, their form gets better (to a point), because you can't really run fast with really bad form....but you can run slow and long with horrible form, and that's when all the injuries happen (when things are off kilter and not aligned).

Running fast is hard to do with bad form, and running slow in hard shoes is also hard to do with really bad form. The common thing is the form stays reasonably good in both cases.

Doing my easier runs in hard shoes, also forces me to cut down easy runs shorter or take them slower if I am not sufficiently recovered from hard and fast runs. For my fast runs, I am more recovered and I can hammer with OK form in any shoes, but the padded shoes are a bit more forgiving on pavement than hard shoes.
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Re: Max Cushioned Shoes for Fast Days, Minimalist for easy/long days [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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That theory is consistent with a couple of observations I have made - I am 180lb and not the fast runner in the world, so i started off with the typical high-padding/soft shoes. However, i find it much better to run in good form with shoes that are firmer and have better road feel - and conversely, the shoes that i find to be too mushy in Z2 often feel a lot better when i run faster.


--
Those who are slower than me suck.
Those who are faster than me dope
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Re: Max Cushioned Shoes for Fast Days, Minimalist for easy/long days [guadzilla] [ In reply to ]
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guadzilla wrote:
That theory is consistent with a couple of observations I have made - I am 180lb and not the fast runner in the world, so i started off with the typical high-padding/soft shoes. However, i find it much better to run in good form with shoes that are firmer and have better road feel - and conversely, the shoes that i find to be too mushy in Z2 often feel a lot better when i run faster.

I wonder if the soft shoes feel better when running faster because the ground contact force is higher, so you compress the soft stuff more and make a more firm contact with the ground. When running easy on cushy shoes, its like there is a layer of jello between foot and ground.

ON shoes try to solve this with an initial cushion that compresses to a hard contact. Another angle on this is trying to do upper body dumbell weights standing on one foot only (like curls, upward row, military press etc). Much easier to do on firm shoes than cushy ones
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Re: Max Cushioned Shoes for Fast Days, Minimalist for easy/long days [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I choose shoes based on running surface and likelihood of fatigue.


When I do track sessions (often in racing flats), they are usually 55 to 60 mins long. Because the intervals are usually short and pace fast, fatigue tends to hit quick and hard (I fall off the cliff). So I end the session at that point and start my cool down run. Handy that my car is never more than 400 metres away.

During Threshold Intervals (up to 90 mins for the entire session) I wear 'fast' training runners like Saucony Kinvara or On Cloudflow. Intervals are longer and less fast (and typically done on non-technique trails). Fatigue build gradually, so loss of technique and form are less obvious. I'm more likely to try and push through, especially seeing as I will usually be kilometres away from home (or my car).

My long runs are always done on trails, sometimes technical trails. This is wear I'm looking for shoes with more substance. I can get away with using the Kinvaras or Cloudflows, but now I'm trying to use runners like the Saucony Mad River TR. Most of my running injuries can come from long runs in the last 5km when I try to persist running rather than walking home. I'm getting better at choosing when to walk, but I think wearing more appropriate runners is also helping.

When I run during lunchtime at work I nearly also wear Hokas regardless of the type of run. This is because the run will always involve a lot of pavement and I need the extra cushioning of the Hokas to protect my legs.
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Re: Max Cushioned Shoes for Fast Days, Minimalist for easy/long days [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I wonder if the soft shoes feel better when running faster because the ground contact force is higher, so you compress the soft stuff more and make a more firm contact with the ground. When running easy on cushy shoes, its like there is a layer of jello between foot and ground.

ON shoes try to solve this with an initial cushion that compresses to a hard contact. Another angle on this is trying to do upper body dumbell weights standing on one foot only (like curls, upward row, military press etc). Much easier to do on firm shoes than cushy ones

Makes sense- my theory is something similar: on slower runs, my turnover is lower and my ground contact time is higher. So my feet have more time to "sink in" and so lose efficiency on the push off. On faster runs, as you said, you pushing down with greater force, so the compression/rebound cycle is quicker. i definitely notice a little more fatigue in my quads from softer shoes.

My one hesitation with trying firmer shoes for longer runs - while they may make the slow runs more efficient, what would the impact on the feet be? I havent run much in the past 3 months (other than do a half with 29km of training over 7 weeks - not recommended), and re-starting running base, so this may be a good time to experiment with this....


--
Those who are slower than me suck.
Those who are faster than me dope
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Re: Max Cushioned Shoes for Fast Days, Minimalist for easy/long days [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The response so far is that people do vary their shoes. How we vary them does differ though.

Currently, I like my fastest shoes for tempo runs, intervals or races. These shoes have less padding compared to my long slow run shoes where I want padding to help me go longer. I use Hokas.

When I just a runner though, I raced in the Nike Mariah with the full air sole so I could pound the roads, especially the downhills.

My favorite running is cross country running where the earth provides the padding so I can use older fast shoes. My treadmill running is also softer than concrete or tarmac so I'll go with less padding there.

Sounds like you're learning about yourself with your choices now. You might change in the future because you could want different feedback.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Max Cushioned Shoes for Fast Days, Minimalist for easy/long days [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I race in Next% or 4% so went to a high drop soft ride shoe to mimic my race shoe and ended up in the Pegasus Turbo. Personally I think the shoe responds well for me from slower runs and comes into it's own as I quicken up. I can dictate pace by feel on the day as I am on the heavier side being a softer shoe I never pull up sore and I love running in the shoe so haven't considered training in anything different. It is by far the most enjoyable shoe I have ever trained in.
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