Keep in mind this is in the context of triathlon and open water swimming

There are very good swimmers out there including pro triathletes that don't share your opinion

Just for arguments sake - I would love to know one...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

If you’re middle aged learning new physical actions like flips turns can have good payback on body awareness and create new brain pathways. Learning new activities in middle age especially that require brain body communication is really good for you.

Personally I doubt it will help your swimming much- but if it helps with core strength, balance and body brain coordination - it may payback for your long term health regardless.

I do think you should ditch your pull bouy for at least some of your yardage.

You're not understanding the difference between "caring how you turn" and "caring about the spread of misinformation". You can turn any way you like, go crazy. Just don't make claims that you can get more swimming in in a certain amount of time by open turning - it's just not true and it may convince folks on here that learning how to flip turn isn't important. //

EXACTLY^^^^^^

Learning how to swim properly like a swimmer is just net positives. Ignoring that, or making excuses for not doing them, are just nonsense. The same goes for learning other strokes too. Of course there is specificity in things, but when it comes to swimming, the specificity is learning how to feel the water, and move it efficiently. Everything that swimmers learned and do, goes to this dynamic. Except for the one ex pro guy on this thread, I know of "no one" who was/is a swimmer/triathlete who does open turns(unless medically necessary). I have known in the past a couple, but they wanted to, and did learn how to flip turn. They understood it was important in a way they just couldn't understand, until they did...

The one other factor I haven't seen mentioned yet is trying to work out with a group. As long as you're just grinding along solo, whatever, but if you really want to take it to the next level you'd gain a lot by throwing in w/ a masters or similar group of swimmers... and if you're trying to keep up in sets and circle swim in a tightly effective group, that simply won't happen if you insist on clinging to open turns.

People will always stubbornly keep trying to defend open turns just because some people are like that, but it's still a crutch, plain and simple. Here's what they're really saying: "Instead of trying to swim like a real swimmer and emulating a proven program, I'm just gonna keep doing it my way and with a whole lot of effort I can eventually suck less." Sure, you can still improve your fitness and technique between the walls regardless of the turns and that will translate into better OW times too, but since you gotta turn anyway, you might as well incorporate more efficient turns while you're at it ~ and that will enable you to train like/with faster swimmers, leading to added gains along w/ the rest of the work you're already putting in. You just need to get past the initial curve of treating them like 'extra' work.

Same thing with kicking and being able to swim all four strokes. I never could kick worth crap (except breast kick, which seemed to come easily) even though swam in HS and frosh yr in college. Finally I decided I was tired of sucking on kick sets and started kicking at least 1000 yd per workout, and the kick finally "clicked". Now I kick 25-35% of every workout w/o any problem. The cool thing is that, excepting breast kick, you can just keep kicking almost forever with essentially zero injury risk. Plus, so many ways: 4 strokes, fins vs no fins, board vs no board, etc. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Really appreciating your insight in this thread Jason.

Ok, I am getting a decent picture in my head on what the coming training will look like, and honestly I am jazzed - excited to see what I can get done in a year.

On the flip turn stuff.. all I can say is (the spirit of this thread being me owning up to shit I *knew* I was doing wrong but justifying to myself why) I know I take a breather at each open turn.

No matter how fast I bounce off the wall, there it is, always a little ** ahh ** or maybe a glace at the clock but its there as soon as I start to get tired - this was especially noticeable to me once I was well... looking for it.. and during the intervals I did this week. Towards the end I was clinging on for a good half a second gasping like a dying fish.

So for me at least learning to flip is on my agenda.

This 1:06 IM result - what was the lead time in that swim?

My experience:
Go cold turkey no pull buoy (previous summer I did a lot of pull & I got real lazy - DONE w/it)
Kickboard is for form, core and kick production (not timing)
Kick timing is 1.2.3. - 1.2.3. -1.2.3. etc Three beats a side which is not a "natural" rhythm for most

Flip turn - just tuck that chin down, go all in, the rest will follow.

Our swim club usually starts with something like:
400M swim warm-up
100-200 Kick (start kicking early to activate)
100 FS
100 Kick
100 Choice etc
Basically alternate kick/ and pulling before going into the interval stuff

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

1:03 ahem... don’t rob me of 3 mins lol

It was IM Barcelona last Oct so was pretty perfect as far as conditions go.

The guy who won my AG swam a 53 and someone else in my AG was sub 50.

Chin tuck... yeah I was sort of muscling my way round and flapping arms.. probably looked hilarious.

Thanks for the tip.. and everyone else on this thread. Honestly this place is a goldmine.

Was looking for top time overall
AG 63/50
I look at %’s of top times, it’s a great indicator, especially if there is a short course or current etc

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

A bunch of 45s and 46s at that race. Hmm...

That's why any claim of swimming prowess based on triathlon swim times don't typically reflect reality.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Lol where did I claim prowess?

I said not completely shit.

The point was that saying "I swam X at triathlon Y" tells us very little about swimming ability, unless X is very fast or very slow.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Did adding that work?

Median swim for my age group was 1:12:47

So as I say, not completely shit but far..far from good. Image from Coach Cox website.

Looking through the thread I am surprised that no one has suggested a Sim Suit (think neoprene jammer). It gives you some (but not all) of the pull buoy effect but allows you to kick and turn, open or flip. It also allows you to transition to or practice a two or six beat kick (and anything in between) and all sorts of stroke drills.

If you swim mostly wetsuit legal then kicking is a bit of a lost cause because the wetsuit position makes the kick less effective (personal opinion) because your body position is higher and you (at least I do) often end up just splashing about. Mostly I use the kick in a race to get rid of foot ticklers.

There is also the question of whether as an adult swimmer you will ever develop the flexibility that is required for a good kick. You can work on that both in and out of the water. When you really want to feel what a good kick should be like, do some stationary vertical kicking with your arms above your head. If you drown, kicking isn't for you.

If you swim with a Masters swim Group consider getting a decent flip turn, otherwise it's just optics. I will say, that if you continue with open turns, then learn to turn on both sides as the wear and tear on the one side is less (25m pools and long sets are hard on one arm). While club racing without a flip turn is without doubt slower, in practice swimming not so much. If you don't push and streamline or breakout properly I don't care how fast your flip is, a good open turn will catch you with less effort.

As you are already swimming 1:03 you probably can get under 1 hour without getting too drastic in your training. Looking at some results from the IM's I have been in there are plenty of sub 10 hr guys and even a few sub 9 hour guys who swim 1:03+ and plenty of 12hr+ guys who swim faster.

And if you are in the slow lane while swimming at a 1:03 level either means you are swimming with a really fast crowd or you need more speed. That alone maybe your problem. When I swam at that speed (1:03) I was still a couple of lanes up from the slow lane, the (ex) Olympic people were a couple or three more lanes faster. Sometimes to go faster you need to train faster.

Cheers

Is 1:12a typical median im swim? I know its not the average but that seems fast to me to have half the mens ag go sub 1:12 for im swim.

Looking at the coach cox website seems pretty typical for Barcelona.

Last Oct was lovely as well, water was flat and a great temp.

Im jist amazed that the median im swimmer can go 1:12

If you swim like a 35 at most hims.you are in the top 25%

It's pretty easy to self-check & avoid being delusional by checking the ego-buoy at the pool door and doing a 400M timed swim, straight up. I do it every few months to see how far I've fallen off! (OMG)

Give or take for age or field, if you are:
Within 10% of top time and an AG'er that's accomplished
Within 25% pretty good - swim badge is yours.
After that, depends on your bike and run, or personal goals to dictate swim training effort.

I'm out of the 25% zone running, so I am working doing a lot of gym to improve body health, movement, balance, overall fitness and running inclines (back chain). Not swimming much and miss it.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

I’m waaaaay out of the 25% running zone.

It’s by far my weakest link, another of this years missions.. get my running volume way up, if I can get to an injury free 50 mpw (30 is my average at the mo) I hope that will change after a year or so.

Then maybe... just maybe I will be finishing in the same zip code as the fast guys. :)