I placed an order an hour ago. We'll see if they deliver.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Start small... even something the size of your palm/hand can be effective. What you're looking for is the "tactile" feedback of resistance against the hand and then teasing out how to best connect that pull into the lat for greater leverage thru the stroke.

(This is getting past just EVF here but figured that's the next step so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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It clicked for me a few weeks into Sheila Taormina's Swim Speed Workouts program. My pace per 100 dropped 10s basically overnight and has improved another 5s or so since.

Lots of good stuff here, as there usually is with swimming threads. One thing that has not been mentioned is the feel you get when doing it right in your triceps and shoulder. For me at least, when I focus on holding that high elbow, it really isolates the triceps and puts added stress on the shoulder area. It is just something I notice when doing it right. If I dont, then all I really feel is the pulling with my hands, and that is the dominant sensation. So when you do EVF, try and feel what your upper arm and shoulder are doing, are they more engaged?(they should be)

Just adding to the thread the importance of not breaking the wrist. Palm and Forearm in this discussion should be considered to be acting as a single flat unit.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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I would analogize this to what the peroneals are doing to isolate the ankle during running or cycling and thus allowing the power delivery device to tap into the main power driver. Use shoulder/tricep to anchor EVF and it gains access to the power of the lat and body rotation ("grip it and rip it").

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Sorry to resurrect this, but I went to the pool to drill the EVF and after my forearm exhaustion and feeling out of breath, I feel like I forgot how to swim.

When you get in position and begin the pull, should it feel like you are pulling with your lats, or the triceps and shoulders? I thought I read on here that your lats should be sore the next day, but I saw a video online that said it’s not a lat pool.

Thanks.

What video???

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Go to about 4:50 in the vid

He didn't say the pull is not lat based but rather he just said the lats are very strong muscles and that you need to develop the deltoid muscles to handle the power of the lats. Or at least that is what I think he was getting at. Really though you're pulling with ALL of the above: traps, lats, delts, triceps, forearm, hand, and even the bicep to a certain degree.

Also, back to the original question, a strong EVF pull feels like you are literally pulling with your whole forearm and hand, not just your hand.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Before we kick this off, one thing to note about the presentation. The way he's showing an EVF position standing on the deck displays it in a very flat planar manner. There's two ways to approach a pull like this.

The first: flat, no body rotation as is shown in the vid. This still pays dividends and there are plenty of adult onset pros at the long course level that resort to this.

The second: when you incorporate body rotation into the stroke, the way EVF looks "standing upright on the deck" is going to look a bit different. You can think of it as mildly reaching out for a light bulb above you (at least in terms of the hip/torso/humerus rotation/reach). Imagine what this fella would look like in this exact position if he were standing on the deck.

In both of these cases you're gonna need to have a strong, rigid arm to grab water. So early in this process, as Eric said, you're gonna feel it in all of the various arm muscles. Probably more so the arm-arm muscles, as opposed to the lats. Earlier in the thread i referred to getting feed back from athletes with "sore lats," that was to denote that they had been successful at incorporating the catch/pull with body rotation, which is sorta a 2nd step after first establishing an EVF pull/catch.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

For the record, I ordered paddles late last week. They were delivered on Wednesday.

did u mean to post that in: “AOS Requesting Guidance”

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

No. Folks were wondering if they were still available, was just mentioning that they were.

Agreed. Picture standing straight up in the pool facing the wall. Place your hands shoulder width apart on the pool deck in front of your and push up to get out of the pool. The muscles you engage in this action are your lats. Now picture this type of motion while your face down in the water propelling yourself forward. Make sure your forearms point toward the back of the pool. Use your lat muscles to pull your vertical forearm through the water while rotating your body. That's what EVF feels like. Keep doing the drills your coach is telling you and you'll get there!

Every time I do fist drills I'm amazed I actually how fast I move through the water. It's all technique. Practice, practice, practice :)

These are the red tech paddles, yes? I have had a set for years and have found them to be very helpful in teaching adult swimmers the concept and feel of EVF. Have you tried them out in the pool yet?

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Yes, I ordered them on http://www.techpaddle.com late last week and got them a few days ago. I did try them out yesterday and it was definitely a different sensation than I have felt before. I also had a bit of lat tenderness today that I haven't had in the past. I'm hopeful that they will help refine my pulling technique.

For me, it feels like when my hand goes in, I start moving my hand down through the water. I move it slightly faster than my speed through the water, so I feel the pressure building up on my palm and forearm. Then when I'm in position it feels like throwing a ball. Where I whip my hand back at the same time my body rotates. And I maintain the pressure all the way through to the hip. Dunno if that helps.

I've used them 2x since I've got them.

They are incredibly awkward to use and I am considerably slower with them compared to other paddles. I guess they're doing what they should... highlighting the fact that I'm not doing EVF...

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri