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Blummenfeldt VO2 max
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Just read the news. The guy is in 91, within the top 10 athletes in history.
Lemond 92.5, Indurain 88, Froome 84.5, Gomez 82.
Seems the best are xcountry skiers.

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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A bit off topic, but having tried cross country skiing recently I have a theory why V02 max is so impressive for top-tier XSkiers.

1. Often taking place at some form of altitude/mountains, innate altitude training.
2. It involves more muscle groups. Even if it stresses quads/hamstrings less than say, running, I suspect there is more net total body muscle 02 consumption simply by the fact there are probably a few added kilograms of active deltoid, tricep, lat/core going on. So, even if there is less consumption per unit muscle, there is just a whole lot more muscle in use.
3. Freaking aerobically hard as shit. Seriously try it. It feels like interval running whilst doing a Vasa-ERG session or something.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [rdubs] [ In reply to ]
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rdubs wrote:
1. Often taking place at some form of altitude/mountains, innate altitude training.
2. It involves more muscle groups. Even if it stresses quads/hamstrings less than say, running, I suspect there is more net total body muscle 02 consumption simply by the fact there are probably a few added kilograms of active deltoid, tricep, lat/core going on. So, even if there is less consumption per unit muscle, there is just a whole lot more muscle in use.
3. Freaking aerobically hard as shit. Seriously try it. It feels like interval running whilst doing a Vasa-ERG session or something.

Your 3 points are absolutely spot on.

- Jordan

My Strava
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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This got beat to death on a thread awhile back, and as I recall, the measurements were off and not accurate..

Now of course this guy has some world class metrics to his physiology, would be fun to actually know them..
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
This got beat to death on a thread awhile back, and as I recall, the measurements were off and not accurate..

the thread...

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...=blumenfelt#p7089906
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
monty wrote:
This got beat to death on a thread awhile back, and as I recall, the measurements were off and not accurate..

the thread...

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...=blumenfelt#p7089906


Sorry about that...I just saw the news today in a spanish website, thought it was recent....
i am thinking of him as the main favourite for Tokyo....

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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juanillo wrote:
Just read the news. The guy is in 91, within the top 10 athletes in history.
Lemond 92.5, Indurain 88, Froome 84.5, Gomez 82.
Seems the best are xcountry skiers.

I wonder what the record is for VO2+HCT, the true measure of endurance limits if ever there was one. Has to be Indurain at upper 80s and upper 50s.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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juanillo wrote:

Sorry about that...I just saw the news today in a spanish website, thought it was recent....
i am thinking of him as the main favourite for Tokyo....

No worries, I was just being helpful, so you could read the prior discussion.

...no criticism intended.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder what the record is for VO2+HCT, the true measure of endurance limits if ever there was one. Has to be Indurain at upper 80s and upper 50s. //

Just like the home run era of ever increasing records that had stood for ages, I think comparing guys from the doping era would be pointless is ascertaining any human limits in those two categories. And those would be the two metrics that were most affected by the new doping that began in the earl 80's, first with blood doping, then with EPO in 1990 or so. Maybe some values before then, that would be fun to see, or some now of guys that we can at least pretend might be clean..
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I think you miss the point. An HCT of upper 50s means, by definition, doping enhanced; no one produces those levels naturally. So you take the best natural endurance athlete (as measured by lung capacity - VO2) and combine it with the best doping (red blood cell carrying capacity - HCT) and you get the optimum endurance athlete that can exist inside the human form. So, who in history has had the highest VO2 + HCT? Of course we will never know, but Indurain must be high up on tha tlist, certainly because he was in the era of upper 50s HCTs (also the era of athletes dying in their sleep due to their sludgy blood). No doubt there are some Russian and Norwegian xc skiiers who probably could compete with him on VO2 + HCT.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [kny] [ In reply to ]
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An HCT of upper 50s means, by definition, doping enhanced;//

About a decade ago I had a thought about this, and I wondered what about people that have lived at high altitudes for dozens, if not 100's of generations. Wouldn't their HCT%'s be through the roof? I found some peoples that where the male averages were over 60%, and the females low 50's. It just made sense to me way back then, and eventually even the doping police had to accept that a good number of top athletes were naturally over 50%. I have a buddy who is a master over 50 that just hit 54% on his last test(probably dehydrated), but routinely hits 51 to 53% on every blood test, no dope(pretty much guarantee that from him)


I myself have been 49.2 at sea level back in the old days, certainly would have been over 50 if I had lived at altitude like I do now. So the answer to your original question, probably comes from some guy from one of these tribes, maybe one that runs like the tarahumara Indians do..Pantani numbers naturally, with a small frame like an African runner, which probably puts VO2 over a 100 at least, and naturally!!
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Actually your friend is likely taking something, though maybe not. There is a good amount of scientific / medical data and research on high altitude populations. Those genetics are very interesting, but the human physiological make up does not naturally support a hematocrit that high. There are other mechanisms at work for those who generationally have those genetics, but it is so obscenely rare for anyone to have over a 50% hematocrit let alone mid 50s.

You can read a good deal of medical data about Tibetan populations and climbers as well as many other high altitude genetics that don't support natural hematocrits EVER being that high. Ever. Ever. Ever.

Source my spouse is a hematologist and sports medicine specialist. She works for a Pro Tour team and specializes on altitude effects in endurance athletes. She also consults for WADA and has seen more tests than I can imagine. There are less than 6 pro tour riders who have medical exemptions for having a 52% red blood cell count or under. Triathlon has a fairly high percentage of people who attempt to apply for these exemptions. Its easy to see what is pure bullshit.
Last edited by: turdburgler: Jan 11, 20 3:03
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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With all due respect to your wife, she is just wrong. I will look around some for the study I found a long time ago, it was a pretty unknown population in south America I believe. But a quick search and my first hit was this study, which found 54.1% in Andeans. It did say that different high altitude populations differ in their adaptations. And that is an average, so for every guy that is 45%, there is someone 60%..

It probably is here on ST somewhere, as I do recall posting it, but screw me and the search function here. But it was about 60% average for the men.. And my friend does not dope, like I said, he was probably dehydrated. But having known him since the early 90's, he has been consistent in the low 50's all that time. And like I said, I have several old tests in the 49's for myself, so have to believe there are a lot more out there around the bubble.

It did explain a lot once if figured it out. Whenever I went to altitude, I would thrive after about the 5th day, while most my training buddies were dead beat. Did a sea level to almost 12k hike once with a much younger girlfriend who said she did well in the mountains, and had to carry her down the mountain that night with severe altitude sickness. Even Dan who has always said he is great up high, went with me on a high trip once, he became severely sick on day 2, while I went on to have one of the best weeks of my life training up high..I was born to be a mountain man, probably why I suck so bad in the Kona heat...

"The data of these studies show a mean hematocrit of 50% in Himalayans and 54.1% in Andeans."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC3049524/
Last edited by: monty: Jan 10, 20 17:24
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Seeing as this thread is getting all scientific I'd just like to add that my Garmin 935 told me my Vo2 Max was 54 yesterday. I figure, but no solid scientific reason, I'll be at Norwegian levels by the end of next week.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
With all due respect to your wife, she is just wrong. I will look around some for the study I found a long time ago, it was a pretty unknown population in south America I believe. But a quick search and my first hit was this study, which found 54.1% in Andeans. It did say that different high altitude populations differ in their adaptations. And that is an average, so for every guy that is 45%, there is someone 60%..

It probably is here on ST somewhere, as I do recall posting it, but screw me and the search function here. But it was about 60% average for the men.. And my friend does not dope, like I said, he was probably dehydrated. But having known him since the early 90's, he has been consistent in the low 50's all that time. And like I said, I have several old tests in the 49's for myself, so have to believe there are a lot more out there around the bubble.

It did explain a lot once if figured it out. Whenever I went to altitude, I would thrive after about the 5th day, while most my training buddies were dead beat. Did a sea level to almost 12k hike once with a much younger girlfriend who said she did well in the mountains, and had to carry her down the mountain that night with severe altitude sickness. Even Dan who has always said he is great up high, went with me on a high trip once, he became severely sick on day 2, while I went on to have one of the best weeks of my life training up high..I was born to be a mountain man, probably why I suck so bad in the Kona heat...

"The data of these studies show a mean hematocrit of 50% in Himalayans and 54.1% in Andeans."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC3049524/

I appreciate the link and shared it with the lady. She knows and understands the research, though disputes many things given her actual work over the past decade with many from these populations including working with two who had to receive exemptions to compete. I've asked her to come on and post herself (native French speaker but her English is great).

There are typically other physiological responses at play for those who do well at altitude FWIW.

I digress. Back to Blu. Very good coaching and athlete.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [Fletch_boy] [ In reply to ]
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Fletch_boy wrote:
Seeing as this thread is getting all scientific I'd just like to add that my Garmin 935 told me my Vo2 Max was 54 yesterday. I figure, but no solid scientific reason, I'll be at Norwegian levels by the end of next week.

Vo2 max and hematocrit are different, but glad you are trending upward mate! ;)
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
I think you miss the point. An HCT of upper 50s means, by definition, doping enhanced; no one produces those levels naturally. So you take the best natural endurance athlete (as measured by lung capacity - VO2) and combine it with the best doping (red blood cell carrying capacity - HCT) and you get the optimum endurance athlete that can exist inside the human form. So, who in history has had the highest VO2 + HCT? Of course we will never know, but Indurain must be high up on tha tlist, certainly because he was in the era of upper 50s HCTs (also the era of athletes dying in their sleep due to their sludgy blood). No doubt there are some Russian and Norwegian xc skiiers who probably could compete with him on VO2 + HCT.

This statement is correct.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder what Bjarne Riis' VO2 Max was. He was, after all, known as "Mr 60%" for his ranking in the hematocrit stakes back in the mid 1990s.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [Bdaghisallo] [ In reply to ]
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Supposedly mid 90s though I doubt we'll ever see that confirmed.

What's interesting is that Blu's result isn't close to top 10. Its top 10 released.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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There are typically other physiological responses at play for those who do well at altitude FWIW. //

I know that and acknowledged it, but I though we were just talking about a hard number here, not its implications. Because that is what the drug agencies used, they dont care what else was involved, just the actual number. You said pretty strongly that there is no way in the world anyone could be that high naturally, and I gave you a quick study I found that proved otherwise. And there are others that go even further, up to 60% as an average as I said before. It's just the number, does your wife dispute those studies on HCT% in high populations?


Anyway we are diverging a bit from the original topic as you pointed out, but not that far really because we are talking about human physiology and its limits. It would be great to get your wife on here, or even lets start a new thread on human physiology and sports, haven't had a really good one on that topic in awhile. And there is new research coming in all the time now too, so would be nice to get some cutting edge stuff that hasn't made it to the textbooks yet...
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [monty] [ In reply to ]
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She says yes in trained athletes. Again I've encouraged her to come on here herself. She is fairly annoyed with this given she has seen massive pools of data from WADA and international bodies including biological passport data since 2011.

Shes worked and testified against dopers and for those who naturally have high RBCs. After a decade in her practice I'm fairly confident that she knows more about this than you or I. She's dealt with so many "outliers" and "honest" people. I'm going to stop posting on this. She is an expert. My knowledge as a professional swimmer and yours as a professional triathlete are great. She's a practicing doctor in endurance sport. I'll defer to her not just because she is intelligent and right, but because so many people I know work their ass off and are genetic freaks, also are amazing liars with regard to dope.
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Let's call back Andy Coggan and there will be a lot of these conversations! Was he kicked out of this forum?

- Antony Costes -
PhD in Biomechanics / Professional Triathlete (9 pro wins)

"If you cannot measure it, you cannot improve it."
Lord Kelvin
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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turdburgler wrote:
She says yes in trained athletes. Again I've encouraged her to come on here herself. She is fairly annoyed with this given she has seen massive pools of data from WADA and international bodies including biological passport data since 2011.

Shes worked and testified against dopers and for those who naturally have high RBCs. After a decade in her practice I'm fairly confident that she knows more about this than you or I. She's dealt with so many "outliers" and "honest" people. I'm going to stop posting on this. She is an expert. My knowledge as a professional swimmer and yours as a professional triathlete are great. She's a practicing doctor in endurance sport. I'll defer to her not just because she is intelligent and right, but because so many people I know work their ass off and are genetic freaks, also are amazing liars with regard to dope.

Yep, I know a french former pro who was in the upper 50's naturally (54), and he was forbidden to compete by the UCI at that time. He had to prove the UCI that it was a genetic trait, and underwent several tests with his family (parents and grand parents). He finally got an exemption, I think he lost a year of competition to prove he was clean.

https://swimrunfrance.fr/
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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My N1= results, out of about 20 athletes, I have two athletes that typically test around 48-51%. Not dopers, just endurance athletes living at 5500 feet.

BoulderCyclingCoach.com
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Re: Blummenfeldt VO2 max [Bdaghisallo] [ In reply to ]
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Bdaghisallo wrote:
I wonder what Bjarne Riis' VO2 Max was. He was, after all, known as "Mr 60%" for his ranking in the hematocrit stakes back in the mid 1990s.

I find Josh Portner's story about Tony Rominger's hour record even funnier. Two records were broken for that attempt. The first was the distance traveled in an hour and the second was how much extra blood you could stuff into a human.

I just about blew my coffee out my nose when I heard that one.
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