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Re: Roast my swim [Laurens4790] [ In reply to ]
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Laurens4790 wrote:
Hi DarkSpeedWorks, thanks a lot for your extensive feedback! Really appriciated. See below some follow-up questions and comments.
No worries, glad to help.

Also, please do not take any of my suggestions without checking them. Don't believe what any coaches (including me) tell you, always check for yourself. There are 1000s of great videos on the web of extraordinarily fast swimmers that you can closely study and observe. If most of them are not doing what a coach suggests, then in all likelihood the coach is mistaken. However, when you do your research, there is a big and important caveat, don't study 6'7'' (2 meter) tall swimmers who are racing the 50m free. Instead, study swimmers similar in height to you that are doing distance freestyle racing, so the 800m, 1000m, 1500m, etc. And you can also study videos of ITU triathletes swimming 1500m in open water, those are excellent as well.


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I always got taught when I just started that bilateral breading is the best. Maybe this differs for pool versus open water swimming?
Yes, it is good to have the skill to breath on both sides. But "bilateral breathing" (breathing every 1.5 stroke cycles) will not give you sufficent oxygen for extended distance swimming at high speed. Nearly all fast swimmers breath every left arm cycle (or every right arm cycle) both in open water and in the pool when racing distance events. Although many of them can (and do) switch sides occasionally (or often) while swimming. (You can confirm this info for yourself if you research online, but consider the caveats that I mention in the top paragraph above.)


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this is very new to me. All my trainers all kept on pushing me to close my fingers as I always used to have them open. Is it most common to open your fingers or are you just from a different school?
Maybe your coaches told you this because you had your hands fully open? If not, your coaches are mistaken. You should NOT clamp your fingers together. You should have your hand mostly closed, but you should have a few mm between all of your fingers. In your case, probably around 5mm (plus/minus). (You can confirm this info for yourself if you research online, but consider the caveats that I mention in the top paragraph above.)


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More feedback would be much appriciated. On (1) do you mean something different than the last part of the first video? Thought that is already from the side above the water. For (2), see my start post, I have added another video from above. Also uploaded another video from the other side of the swim under water and front the front underwater just in case.
The video you posted from above is very helpful. Then main thing I see there is that your arm entry is way way too close to your body centerline. You need your arms to enter the water, not along your body's centerline, but instead along the centerline of that shoulder (for the left arm, use the left shoulder as a "centerline" / for the right arm, use the right shoulder as a "centerline"). This means that each arm should enter the water at least 1 foot (30 cm) further toward the outside than you are currently doing now. (You can confirm this info for yourself if you research online, but consider the caveats that I mention in the top paragraph above.)

Keep on swimming,
Greg

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Jan 8, 20 17:12
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Re: Roast my swim [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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Zenmaster28 wrote:
Also this. https://www.instagram.com/p/B7CbjJlhIP6/

Yikes.

The best reason yet ...

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Re: Roast my swim [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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Zenmaster28 wrote:
Also this. https://www.instagram.com/p/B7CbjJlhIP6/

Yup. Couple of weeks ago I smacked wrists with one of the ladies in my lane, hard. She thought she broke it. I imagine it would have been a lot worse if I was wearing a watch.

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Re: Roast my swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I love wearing a watch when I swim. Tracks my distance, I can record test sets when swimming & refer back to them weeks, months, & years later.
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Re: Roast my swim [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks a lot again. I am aware that there are of course many different schools in swimming. Nevertheless, your reasoning is very clear and helpful. Will also discuss these points with my swim coach and lets work on it :) Cheers!
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Re: Roast my swim [Laurens4790] [ In reply to ]
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One more question I had. I often hear my body position is quite good already but nevertheless, I swim a lot easier - and often faster- with a pullboay. Looking at my video's, can anyone tell me what could possibly be the reason for this?
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Re: Roast my swim [Laurens4790] [ In reply to ]
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Laurens4790 wrote:
One more question I had. I often hear my body position is quite good already but nevertheless, I swim a lot easier - and often faster- with a pullboay. Looking at my video's, can anyone tell me what could possibly be the reason for this?

I think it’s because, like most AOS, your kick isn’t that good. You’re not able to point your toes, so when you kick as much as you are doing in the video, that actually increases drag. (Plus that much kicking generally isn’t great for a distance swimmer or triathlete) The trick for you is going to be learning to keep your legs up without kicking so much, which is admittedly less of an issue for wetsuit swims. But I do think it’s good to have that skill for non-wetsuit swims.

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Re: Roast my swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Allright, was suspecting this already :) Another point on the list. Thanks!
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Re: Roast my swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Laurens4790 wrote:
One more question I had. I often hear my body position is quite good already but nevertheless, I swim a lot easier - and often faster- with a pullboay. Looking at my video's, can anyone tell me what could possibly be the reason for this?


I think it’s because, like most AOS, your kick isn’t that good.

Thx. I had the same feeling lately. body position isnt too bad for my pace but still the difference with /without PB is massive.

So then...: No skipping "leg day" anymore... Damn :-) Should have asked santa for flexible ankles instead of a new PB I guess,,,
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Re: Roast my swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
those are the couple of things that jump out. I like your body position overall, legs are up and I don't see a ton of drag from them. There are some things you can do with timing your kick with your arms better, I think.

In the top view, you can see the OP's hand entering in front of his head, rather than in front of his shoulders. The first arm movement is to the outside to get them in the correct position to start the catch/pull. You'll also note that the OP has a good bit of foot/leg splaying (that causes drag). I would bet that these two things are connected: correct the hand entry, and the leg splaying will diminish.

To the OP: I'd like to see a video of you with a narrow, two-beat (possibly with a crossover) kick. This kick should be just for timing, and not for propulsion. Really just like not kicking at all. I'll predict that you can't keep your feet within a foot (pun not intended) of each other and/or your legs drop.

To me, a "strong kick" for an endurance swimmer means your legs don't cause drag.

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Re: Roast my swim [Laurens4790] [ In reply to ]
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Laurens4790 wrote:
One more question I had. I often hear my body position is quite good already but nevertheless, I swim a lot easier - and often faster- with a pullboay. Looking at my video's, can anyone tell me what could possibly be the reason for this?


Look at the video from above, and note how far apart your feet are (from side to side) when kicking. I'm guessing that you don't do that when you have a pullbuoy (else you would lose the pull buoy), and this reduces leg drag quite a bit. You may be using your large, inefficient (for kicking) leg/butt muscles to kick in order to keep your legs horizontal, which is a lot harder than using the correct muscles in tension to maintain high legs.

Here's a screen grab of your video from above. Draw a line from your right foot to your hip to your shoulder to your hand. That line should be straight, and yours has a serious curve to it. You are snaking through the water. Move your hand entry to be in front of your shoulder (think about 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock), and this will go away, and your legs won't splay.



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"Go yell at an M&M"
Last edited by: klehner: Jan 9, 20 5:18
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Re: Roast my swim [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. I made that comment before the OP added the top view video. It's a lot easier to see what's going on in that one.

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Re: Roast my swim [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Laurens4790 wrote:
One more question I had. I often hear my body position is quite good already but nevertheless, I swim a lot easier - and often faster- with a pullboay. Looking at my video's, can anyone tell me what could possibly be the reason for this?


Look at the video from above, and note how far apart your feet are (from side to side) when kicking. I'm guessing that you don't do that when you have a pullbuoy (else you would lose the pull buoy), and this reduces leg drag quite a bit. You may be using your large, inefficient (for kicking) leg/butt muscles to kick in order to keep your legs horizontal, which is a lot harder than using the correct muscles in tension to maintain high legs.

Here's a screen grab of your video from above. Draw a line from your right foot to your hip to your shoulder to your hand. That line should be straight, and yours has a serious curve to it. You are snaking through the water. Move your hand entry to be in front of your shoulder (think about 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock), and this will go away, and your legs won't splay.

Thank you klehner! Really helpful feedback and thanks for the visual analysis as well :) I guess I will focus on improving my front a lot the coming months: first improve my EVF and directly after that hand entry in straight line with my shoulder. Lets see how much this already fixes my legs problem and continue to work from thereon.
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Re: Roast my swim [Laurens4790] [ In reply to ]
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Laurens4790 wrote:
klehner wrote:
Laurens4790 wrote:
One more question I had. I often hear my body position is quite good already but nevertheless, I swim a lot easier - and often faster- with a pullboay. Looking at my video's, can anyone tell me what could possibly be the reason for this?


Look at the video from above, and note how far apart your feet are (from side to side) when kicking. I'm guessing that you don't do that when you have a pullbuoy (else you would lose the pull buoy), and this reduces leg drag quite a bit. You may be using your large, inefficient (for kicking) leg/butt muscles to kick in order to keep your legs horizontal, which is a lot harder than using the correct muscles in tension to maintain high legs.

Here's a screen grab of your video from above. Draw a line from your right foot to your hip to your shoulder to your hand. That line should be straight, and yours has a serious curve to it. You are snaking through the water. Move your hand entry to be in front of your shoulder (think about 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock), and this will go away, and your legs won't splay.



Thank you klehner! Really helpful feedback and thanks for the visual analysis as well :) I guess I will focus on improving my front a lot the coming months: first improve my EVF and directly after that hand entry in straight line with my shoulder. Lets see how much this already fixes my legs problem and continue to work from thereon.


Look at this video. Note the following things:

1) in the shots from above: look at where his arm is at full extension. You can draw a straight line from his hand, through his shoulder, through his hip, to his foot. Especially obvious when his arm is directly over the black line
2) in the underwater shots (like around 8:00 in), look at his leg position. Almost no kick, but feet are at the surface, and his knees are at or higher than the level of his hips (his hip flexibility is good, and he's using his back/butt/hamstring to keep his legs high)
3) look at everyone's head position, and find me someone who *isn't* looking forward, as opposed to at the bottom of the pool
4) look at the EVF. No, you can't do it as well as he can, but it's the aspirational goal.



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Re: Roast my swim [Laurens4790] [ In reply to ]
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Laurens4790 wrote:
Thanks a lot again. I am aware that there are of course many different schools in swimming. Nevertheless, your reasoning is very clear and helpful. Will also discuss these points with my swim coach and lets work on it :) Cheers!
Coaches or teachers that say that there are "many different schools" in swimming are leading you in the wrong direction. Because it is a misleading statement that's little more than a cover for ignorance. Yes, there is sprint swimming technique and there is distance swimming technique and there are significant differences between the two (for example, like in running, an elite marathoner looks very different--for good reason--in the way he/she runs than does an elite 100m sprinter). And also, in the subset of distance swimming, there are also some differences between the swim technique of racers that swim 1500m in glass-smooth pools vs those that swim 10,000m in the ocean with big waves. But all of these differences are not due to "different schools" of swimming. No, they are due to the laws that govern all movement: the laws of physics.

Because there is only ONE school in fast swimming and that is the one supported by EVIDENCE. What kind of evidence? Well, if you truly observe closely how exactly many athetes swim very fast in distance events, patterns become very easy to see. Because easily 95% to 99% of distance swimmers do almost exactly the same thing technique-wise. (Yes, there is a tiny bit of variation, but that is because all people are slightly different, shorter people swim a bit differently from taller people, women swim a bit differently from men because of body morphology, some people have different limb lengths and some have different flexibility, etc.). So, don't follow "schools", just follow the evidence. 1000x more information is available to you than was available to swimmers only a few years ago. Use it to verify everything that people tell you here or at your local pool. Knowledge is power.


Laurens4790 wrote:
One more question I had. I often hear my body position is quite good already but nevertheless, I swim a lot easier - and often faster- with a pullboay. Looking at my video's, can anyone tell me what could possibly be the reason for this?
About your body position (visible from the top), I think others have covered it fairly well. If it helps, most people can swim a bit faster with a pull buoy, but with swimmers that have a worse body position, the pull buoy helps them a lot more. The better your body position becomes, the less the pull buoy helps you. More specifically for you, if you fix your arm entry (as I covered in my earlier post) and get your kick closer together, other things will start correcting themselves on their own. For distance swimming, you should be kicking very lightly, just for buoyancy, and your legs should be close to together, streamlined and close enough that your big toes lightly brush against each other fairly often during kicking.

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Re: Roast my swim [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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You are right and this is what I actually meant. Thanks again for all your help!
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