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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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I don't use heart rate so can't help you there. Have you said what a typical running week is for you? How long have you been doing that? What do you run at the moment? What kind of injuries are you prone to? How close do you think you are to your goals at the moment? I think all this stuff is highly individual and your history is the best indicator of what you can achieve. Or if you haven't had any structure and been doing it ad hoc then, I think, that's even more reason to do a steady build.
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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skyjuice wrote:
I would like to gather inputs and see if shorter distance races (5K to 10K) could be improved with little to none speed works. I could run high volume at a comfortable easy up to tempo pace but anything beyond that is daunting to me as I have a history of injury if pushed too hard and also I dislike the feeling of lactate burn.

I am not a great runner, with lots of improvement to be made. My easy run pace is around 9min/mile, tempo pace is 8min/mile. Aiming to go sub 44mins 10k and 1h44 half marathon

As many others have said, yes, there are lots of gains you can make on shorter distance races without high-end speedwork. These come from a blend of increasing aerobic fitness, increasing running economy, and (likely if you haven't run high volume before) decreasing weight.

Anecdotal example: The first time I trained for a marathon, in 2007, I was running almost exclusively easy mileage. Averaged about 40 mpw a week for the 5 months leading up to the race (which I now realize to be way lower than it should have been, but was a lot for me at the time!), and over 5 months from May-October went from a 5-mile time of 34:00 (6:48/mile) to a 5k time of 18:15 (5:52/mile). Very little fast running in the training cycle -- just an emphasis on endurance and volume.

So, especially if you have not run an enormous amount before, you can make huge gains with a consistent block of easy, frequent runs.
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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skyjuice wrote:
I'd be darn happy to break 20min for a 5K race just by doing low-intensity work. For those doing high volume low intensity runs, what is your heart rate like? Mine is around 135bpm, but it wil eventually go up as I run further (the hot and humid weather here in Southeast Asia doesnt help on that).

sure then do 70mpw+ .... and then get made fun of by guys doing 30mpw running 1:13 half :(
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Re: Running without speed works [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
skyjuice wrote:
I'd be darn happy to break 20min for a 5K race just by doing low-intensity work. For those doing high volume low intensity runs, what is your heart rate like? Mine is around 135bpm, but it wil eventually go up as I run further (the hot and humid weather here in Southeast Asia doesnt help on that).


sure then do 70mpw+ .... and then get made fun of by guys doing 30mpw running 1:13 half :(

The OP talks about aiming for a 1.44 half so I'm not sure how relevant what people running a 1.13 half think is to the conversation. It's entirely possible they have the empathy to appreciate people's different challenges and applaud anyone pushing their pbs. He literally just said he'd be darn happy to break 20 mins 5km so, again, 1.13 half running is an entirely different conversation. I also doubt he is thinking of running anywhere near 70 mpw. Maybe that is where your disconnect is. Maybe reread the original post and then try and be constructive.
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Re: Running without speed works [OddSlug] [ In reply to ]
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OddSlug wrote:
synthetic wrote:
skyjuice wrote:
I'd be darn happy to break 20min for a 5K race just by doing low-intensity work. For those doing high volume low intensity runs, what is your heart rate like? Mine is around 135bpm, but it wil eventually go up as I run further (the hot and humid weather here in Southeast Asia doesnt help on that).


sure then do 70mpw+ .... and then get made fun of by guys doing 30mpw running 1:13 half :(

The OP talks about aiming for a 1.44 half so I'm not sure how relevant what people running a 1.13 half think is to the conversation. It's entirely possible they have the empathy to appreciate people's different challenges and applaud anyone pushing their pbs. He literally just said he'd be darn happy to break 20 mins 5km so, again, 1.13 half running is an entirely different conversation. I also doubt he is thinking of running anywhere near 70 mpw. Maybe that is where your disconnect is. Maybe reread the original post and then try and be constructive.

You are asking synthetic to be constructive 😂
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Re: Running without speed works [OddSlug] [ In reply to ]
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I have been running for the past 7 years or so, making some improvement but at a very slow rate. In addition to running, I also do weight training on top of cycling and swimming. Current mileage is around 200km+ per month, which is slightly less than 40mpw (hopefully my math is working here).

If I were to increase my mileage to 50mpw on an average of 5 running days, that would mean 10 mile per day. Do you guys do that in ONE run (if yes - on road or treadmill, or does that even matter) or split into two runs a day?
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're nearer 30 miles a week aren't you? Have you read the BarryP advice? Lots to dig into there, like how to increase mileage safely, fitting in with tri training and most useful sessions for specific distances.

Regarding injury worries. Is that because of particular injuries in the past or a general concern? With a good history of running and cross training you should have a good strength background.

If it's specific maybe visit a sports physio and get advice. You could also look at some more run training that higher quality but doesn't trigger that concern. Hill training is different to 400m reps for instance.

If it's general then maybe, very gradually, introduce some faster pace during a run. If I've warmed up properly, started off and feel fine after a few miles then I am more comfortable picking up the pace. You could do a few short efforts with easier running in between. Doesn't have to be that fast, just picking it up a bit and stretching the legs.

But read the BarryP stuff and make any changes gradually.
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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I don't use heart rate when I run. I keep some awareness of my pace just because I know my routes to a T, and so when I hit the mile markers I compare how I feel with what my watch is saying (just a Timex Ironman, no GPS pace or anything, old school calculating pace in my head). Typically on an easy run I'm going 8-8:40/mi, which is HMP + 2.5min and probably ~ 2min over MP. I start most runs by trotting at minimal effort for 3-5min to get the blood flowing, then get into more of an actual run, and I'm usually at the faster end of my expected range by the end of the run. In the summer here when the heat index is over 110 F, I'm usually more like 8:40-9min/mi than 8-8:40, but it really depends. Focus on keeping your cadence at 90 steps/foot/minute (it's gonna feel real stupid at first). You've got to learn to listen to your body. Easy isn't necessarily a pace or heart rate, it's a feeling. Your effort should be repeatable every single day until you choose to rest. If, while you're running, you say to yourself "I can't do this again tomorrow," slow down.

The other variable is frequency. People hear "low-intensity" and assume it's a shortcut to getting faster ("I'll just go easy at my normal volume and improve!"). You have to get the miles in. Starting with 20-30min of easy running every day, then extend 3 of those runs to about an hour, then extend one of the hour runs to 90min, then extend the rest of the runs to an hour. That should take a few months. Once you're at 50-60min/day 5-6 days per week with a 90min run on one of the other days, take a midweek run and run comfortably hard for 20-40min in the middle of it. It's fine if that means that it needs to be 70-75min instead of 60 to accommodate proper WU/CD. You may be able to jump into that process further into the progression depending on your current fitness and training. You should be in the 40-60mpw range for the easy volume method to work.

Low volume high intensity works, high volume low intensity works, but low volume/low intensity does not work.

"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
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Re: Running without speed works [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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I don't really have an answer. Was a slow out of shape kid in high school. Joined the Army and did the normal running from 18-24 and then I found triathlons at 25. Did my first 5k right at 20 min. I don't know where the speed comes from. What I'd say that has really helped me is that I've been running consistently since I was 18. Not a lot of miles, but every year there's been training runs. I guess that's helped with the speed.

Maybe I'm some weird freak. But I do remember in the 8th grade being outran in the 40 by my best friend who was 100 pounds more than me.
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Re: Running without speed works [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:

sure then do 70mpw+ .... and then get made fun of by guys doing 30mpw running 1:13 half :(


That's genetics at play as much as training volume. The 70mpw is a better way to max out your genetic potential for 90+% of the population

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Dec 30, 19 7:44
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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I’m all over running without speedwork, or as I like to think of it, running just for the fun of running.

Serious question though. I’m doing four treadmill runs a week at work on my lunch. Do you think I should vary the incline in these sessions? Would running all of these runs at a constant uphill benefit me more?

I’m getting in 2-3 outside runs a week on top of this too.
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Re: Running without speed works [t1mmy] [ In reply to ]
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t1mmy wrote:
I’m doing four treadmill runs a week at work on my lunch. Do you think I should vary the incline in these sessions? Would running all of these runs at a constant uphill benefit me more?

Most treadmills need to be at 1-1.5% (will vary) to mimic normal neuromotor patterning from outside.
Running hills is excellent for running economy.

Here's a bit of running trivia for you: In the history of running how many runners have been to economical when running? 0. That's right. There has never been a runner too economical in the history of running. Ever.

Yes, use the incline.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 30, 20 7:57
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Re: Running without speed works [skyjuice] [ In reply to ]
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Just an update on my previous race. I was aiming for a 1:45 half marathon (5:00min/km pace) and managed to finish at 1:35 for 20km (yes, it was 1km short) so that was 4:45min/km pace. I did not do any intense speed work - mostly running at my target race pace which I consider tempo runs.

I have a 7km local race coming in 2 weeks and I aim to finish at 30 or 31mins (4:24min/km pace). Given the short time frame, should I add in 2-3 interval runs at this pace?
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