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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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But you do TRY for what's on the program when you lift. Because the point is to lift more weight (Even if you just want to get swole the mechanism for doing that is lifting more weight). Sometimes you don't get it, sometimes it's easier than you expected. But the weight lifted is the work done regardless of how it felt. And the power you put out is the speed you go (assuming your weight doesn't change mid ride)

RPE is still relevant. If your RPE for the scheduled interval is higher than expected or if you fail to achieve the intervals scheduled you may be getting sick. You may not be ready for the increased workload. Maybe you didn't eat enough to perform well. So you adjust your training from there. But if you only use RPE you don't know where your "there" is.

At least that's how I do it. I will admit that approaching intervals on the trainer with progressive overload in mind is directly affected by my days lifting heavy. So maybe it's not the best way but I am getting faster.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [Justicebeaver] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, and if you're on a dumb trainer, the work done is the work done regardless of whether you can see the numbers.

Try this for a thought experiment. You go to a new gym and there's no numbers on any equipment. Do you think you could still get an effective workout in?

What about guys like me, when I go to the gym I don't typically follow a program, just a rough outline of what I want to work on that day (actually I haven't had time to go in months, but that's another issue), and I rarely do the same exercises in the same order. The actual numbers on the weights don't really mean that much when you are always changing things anyway. Typically the first set is a "calibration", the next 2-4 sets are the work.

I still get stronger, but without the hassle of meticulously recording anything.

Swimming Workout of the Day: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5784860#5784860;
Favourite Swim Sets: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...m.cgi?;post=5004659;
Unattainable goals for 2019/2020 season. https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6944848#p6944848
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
What about guys like me, when I go to the gym I don't typically follow a program, just a rough outline of what I want to work on that day (actually I haven't had time to go in months, but that's another issue), and I rarely do the same exercises in the same order. The actual numbers on the weights don't really mean that much when you are always changing things anyway. Typically the first set is a "calibration", the next 2-4 sets are the work.

I still get stronger, but without the hassle of meticulously recording anything.

How do you know you are getting stronger?
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [Justicebeaver] [ In reply to ]
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Not to get all philosophical, if I purely did it the way I describe, with no numbers on anything and I had such a short memory that I couldn't remember what I lifted week to week, then I wouldn't actually know if I got stronger. I would only be able to believe I got stronger.

There would be a reasonable basis for that belief if other facts indicated that it was very likely that I was getting stronger. e.g. I could do a greater number of pushups or pullups,

eta - there are also plenty of things in the weight room that don't have numbers attached, or the numbers are variable. heavy ropes, resistance bands, bodyweight exercises....

Swimming Workout of the Day: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5784860#5784860;
Favourite Swim Sets: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...m.cgi?;post=5004659;
Unattainable goals for 2019/2020 season. https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6944848#p6944848
Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Dec 2, 19 8:56
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Body weight exercises and resistance bands have known weights. Your body has a known weight. So if you do more reps at a defined resistance you have quantitative evidence that you are getting stronger. If you lose 10 lbs and do more reps on a body weight exercise you know absolutely nothing about how your ability to apply force has changed.

I'm not saying you can't get faster with a dumb trainer. I'm just saying having a consistent, repeatable measurement of your power output to compare against RPE is dramatically more effective than RPE alone.

I will however admit that heavy ropes are a thing that exists in gyms. They make a lot of noise and make you out of breath. They can produce a high RPE but they are not particularly effective at adapting your muscles to producing more force.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [Justicebeaver] [ In reply to ]
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Justicebeaver wrote:
Body weight exercises and resistance bands have known weights. Your body has a known weight. So if you do more reps at a defined resistance you have quantitative evidence that you are getting stronger. If you lose 10 lbs and do more reps on a body weight exercise you know absolutely nothing about how your ability to apply force has changed.

I'm not saying you can't get faster with a dumb trainer. I'm just saying having a consistent, repeatable measurement of your power output to compare against RPE is dramatically more effective than RPE alone.

I will however admit that heavy ropes are a thing that exists in gyms. They make a lot of noise and make you out of breath. They can produce a high RPE but they are not particularly effective at adapting your muscles to producing more force.

Hence why I said believe, not know.

Swimming Workout of the Day: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5784860#5784860;
Favourite Swim Sets: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...m.cgi?;post=5004659;
Unattainable goals for 2019/2020 season. https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6944848#p6944848
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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x whatever on buying one of the major power meter training books, reading them cover to cover, then ask yourself if that's something you want to get into. Because unless you have a coach analyzing the data for you, you're going to have to do it yourself. Some applications (both free and paid) can help you bridge the gap on analysis, but there is still a requirement for you to load all the data diligently, digest the results, then apply what you've learned to your next workout or your next race.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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How do you judge your self worth as a human being without being able to accurately calculate your FTP or w/kg?
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [TJP_SBR] [ In reply to ]
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Strava ;-)
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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You don’t *NEED* a power meter.

Just like you don’t *NEED* a smartphone (or a cell phone of any type)

You don’t *NEED* internet access

None of the above things are truly needed. However each of those technological advancements have made certain aspects of life more effective/efficient, and have allowed each of us better insight than we ever would have thought was possible.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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It will make you faster
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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I am in the same boat than you, 99% of my riding is on TR with a "dumb" trainer and wondering if a powermeter would help me in any way. I always felt that the "virtual power" number might not be accurate but are consistent and that the accuracy of the powermeter would be dismissed by the inaccuracy of the dumb trainer/tire/tire pressure combo. The argument that it would be useful for pacing on HIM it only appears to be true to me if you train with it outdoors too, i don't think ( and I could very well be wrong) that whatever numbers a powermeter would give me from a dumb trainer could be transferred to a real ride outside? I guess I am not helping with your decision, just my 2 cents, sorry.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [DaniD] [ In reply to ]
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DaniD wrote:
I am in the same boat than you, 99% of my riding is on TR with a "dumb" trainer and wondering if a powermeter would help me in any way. I always felt that the "virtual power" number might not be accurate but are consistent and that the accuracy of the powermeter would be dismissed by the inaccuracy of the dumb trainer/tire/tire pressure combo. The argument that it would be useful for pacing on HIM it only appears to be true to me if you train with it outdoors too, i don't think ( and I could very well be wrong) that whatever numbers a powermeter would give me from a dumb trainer could be transferred to a real ride outside? I guess I am not helping with your decision, just my 2 cents, sorry.

In my n=1 personal experience, the PM didn't make me significantly faster after coming from TR+dumb trainer on virtualpower (was on a reliable Cycleops Fluid2). I was pushing pretty hard on workouts prior to the PM, so even on a great TR super hard block I was lucky to get even 5 watts added after killing myself on a lot of the workouts.

Still, at $500 for an Assioma Uno, I think it's a great investment, as they are still very valuble for outdoor workout tracking, race execution AND analysis, and all that good stuff mentioned above, even if it doesn't make you a ton faster.

I have lots of tech now, but honestly, in my 12 years of tri, having done quite a few programs from TR superstructure, to freeform 'no-plan', I think it all comes down to how much hard training you can put in with good recovery. For sure, a powermeter or even a structured training program won't give you a warp boost in performance unless you were slacking off pretty good to begin with.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [TJP_SBR] [ In reply to ]
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TJP_SBR wrote:
How do you judge your self worth as a human being without being able to accurately calculate your FTP or w/kg?

Life is meaningless suffering.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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I don't need a PM, but I can't live without it. I'm lost without the power data even on my easy 2 mile commute. There were times I moved my pedal PM to my commute bike just to see how much power and calories I actually used in those 10 easy minutes on my single speed cruiser. Heart rate just didn't cut it when estimating calories.

I'm at the age when a PM just won't help me anymore in training. I'm declining and the PM just tells me that.

However, I've found some uses for the PM to try and get 'free speed'. I have an 8 mile loop that is very flat on a bike trail. I have done the loop at my Ironman pace (not power) which for 8 miles is quite easy. Then I check the power. I will do this loop with different clothes, helmets, water bottles, etc. and check the change in power. Just a few weeks ago, I did the loop with a regular jersey over my tri suit and discovered a 5 watt increase. That doesn't sound like much, but over an IM distance, it will make a difference. A few years ago, my neighbor and I did 5 of these loops with different things. It was a cold morning and one loop, I put a sweat shirt over my tri kit...that added 20 watts!!!
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
TJP_SBR wrote:
How do you judge your self worth as a human being without being able to accurately calculate your FTP or w/kg?


Life is meaningless suffering.

This is incredibly sad.



Not as sad as my ftp. But still pretty sad.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting that in this thread up to now there is only talk about PM and PE.
HR has not been mentioned.

Some here criticize that if you use a PM, you do not factor in the shape you're in on the day.
Whereby HR does exactly that: it measures the intensity of the body, it works like a PM which factors in the shape you're in.

Also people seem to have forgotten that you can also use HR when running.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [DaniD] [ In reply to ]
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DaniD wrote:
I am in the same boat than you, 99% of my riding is on TR with a "dumb" trainer and wondering if a powermeter would help me in any way.

A PM alone will not help.....a PM with a training plan will help you a ton.

I have had a PM since 2013 and my wife....finally.....made the jump to training with power this year and a smart trainer. She has gotten faster in a short amount of time than training with HR alone. PM's are a great tool but you have to train with a plan and know what the numbers are telling you.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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Yesterday I went out for only a 15min ride to test out the new Jet 6+ wheels. Having new bling makes you peppy.

There's a little false flat downhill to the house right after a fast sweeping downhill. I use it as a "leadout" to a sprint for home.

Being able to see 4 digit numbers on the head unit can be motivating to dig a little longer for that 5-second power PR.

Also good for the Strava street cred to post up real 4-digit numbers for a ride.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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I was in a similar boat: TrainerRoad with a dumb trainer and virtual power for a couple years, then got a power meter. Training-wise, the main difference was that I found virtual power to be off by like 30-40 watts, regardless of wattage. Since everything was based on FTP, which I got by testing with virtual power, it meant that intervals close to FTP were as difficult as the should be. Sprints well above FTP were actually easier than they should have been, and I was overdoing it on all my rest intervals. So I'd say that the power meter helped me achieve the correct stimulus for any workout.
The other big thing was getting power numbers for my outdoor rides and races. I need to pick up a new copy of the aforementioned book, as I lost mine, but it's good for analysis after the fact, even if you aren't religiously following a race plan.
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Re: Convince me I need a power meter [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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Get one. Seriously, just get one.

I have a 4iiii single sided PM that I paid ~$300 for on sale, and it's the best purchase I made this year.

The feedback has led me to change my cadence/gearing, as well as my riding style. I found I was pushing way too hard on uphills and letting my power drop a lot on even easy downhill grades. Evening that up has helped a lot.

It will, of course, allow you to Zwift if you are so inclined; which (IMO) is loads better than watching videos or staring at a wall.
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