That's a fair point. I'm ~137lbs and roll 90psi in my ~24.3mm wide vitts.


ETA: decimal point in the wrong spot

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Roll the disc, but pair the tire accordingly. It matters how the air comes off the bike. That being said there are a few reasons while it will be faster than a deep spoked wheel.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the cited studies in your link used rims that were wider than the track width. Including the 404 at the time. If it was, it was 1-2mm, not a 7mm difference like the Jet 9 which bulges from 25mm to 32mm. Now ask yourself why the Jet+ 9 tests faster with 23mm tires than 25mm.

Since you so kindly asked me to "go on" consider that the Jet+ 6 is also narrower at the widest point than most of the brands I listed (others dont have 90mm rims, so cant compared to that).

Hed 28mm
Bonti 28mm
FLO 28.5mm
Enve 29mm
Reynolds 29.5mm
Roval 30mm

By either measure, HED isnt "one of the widest" anymore. Thats the only correction i was making for the original poster.

Seems like you're trying to change the argument or at least your point. You stated that you go off brake track for the 105% rule and I demonstrated that the guy that "came up" with that rule always went with the widest point of the rim not the brake track. Take from that what you want to.

AS to why the HED bulges 7mm, I'm going to say it's HEDs philosophy in regards to what is the best braking material for a rim brake and their belief in rims being as light as reasonably possible. To keep the air attached from the "poor interface" as to which you describe they need the fairing to go out further than what those other narrower rims you describe that start their bulge sooner. And since HED believed aluminum was the best material for a clincher rim brake bike ~25mm was likely as wide as they wanted to go there for compatibility with rim brakes and weight. Thus you get a larger bulge that is needed to keep the air attached. Different way to get you to the same outcome as HED don't believe in CC's for a rim brake model. (these are only my assumptions as I am not privy to any models that demonstrate this. But you do have to ask yourself how come the JET9 is so much faster than all these wheels that "have left it behind").

In regards to 23 and 25 tires and which is fastest, I'd love to see the data. Do you have any?

Lastly, I will leave you with my HED Stinger 6s from 2010 that had a brake track of 28mm and bulged out further from there. Does it really sound like HED didn't know the best way to build a wheel or that they were behind the times in matching a tire to the wheel? I mean the patent referenced in the link I posted talks about how its HED's patent and how it is all about the tire and the rim interaction.



So in your first paragraph you imply 1-2mm isn't much of anything and now it is? Regardless, it was the Jet 9 that was specifically mentioned.

I think you misunderstood what the poster was saying with regards to the JET 9 being one of the widest. The Jet 9, to which he refers is wider than all those wheels you are referring to. Had nothing to do with tires, but clearance issues that could arise. Now tires were used in his post but so was the specific notion he referred to "frames". I then made a correction to your correction and I also stuck to this point in my follow up to your 105% rule response, which I wasn't even referring to in my initial correction to your correction.

Anyhow, I'd love to see that data where all these rims you mention are aerodynamically faster with wider tires than what the JET9 is fastest with.

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Where do you have the 32mm measurement of the RC9 from? I haven't been able to confidently find what profile and width current Jet 9 family is. I have a Jet 9 Black from 2016 or 2017 and pretty sure it's not anywhere near 32mm. My caliper can't quite reach the widest point, but I'd say it's somewhere around 28mm.

I can find this link where external rim width is stated as 32mm, but at the same time the profile below is clearly showing the fairing is not any wider than the brake track, hence maximum width the same 25mm as the brake track:

https://store.hedcycling.com/jet-rc-black-series/

The profile doesn't look like my Jet 9 Black's profile at all. Not sure if/when they've updated the shape.

I'm pulling it from the same place you are. I had an older Jet that was 23mm at the brake track and also had the issue of not having a caliper deep enough to measure, at least not at the house, but it was wider at the fairing than at the brake track.

It would be nice if someone from HED would fill us in as I also don't think those drawings are to scale. Every photo I look at seems to show a fairing that bulges out from the brake track, but none are really clear enough to prove/disprove that drawing. What I do know is my old JET disc was 32mm wide as I could measure that through the valve cutout. You might be right on the 28, as 32mm sounded really wide to me, but without other measurements to the contrary I am going to with what HED is sharing.

I don't recall ever seeing anything like 32mm, so maybe they did go wider on the latest wheel. As evidenced by the old JET Disc they're not scared to push it in the realm.

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I think you're getting lost in emotion or something... As I said, I own and love the wheels. They are fast, brake well, are American made, great bang/$, and look nice. All I said was that HED is not one of the widest and listed some of the most popular wheels which are all wider no matter where you measure. But since we now have like 10 tangential discussions going on, here are your responses to those:

Anything "changing the argument" was added because of your tangential points.

You referenced something to make a point but it doesn't contain the info you claim. The 105% post says nothing about being at the widest part in any of the studies it references and at hose studies use wheels that bulge at most 1-2mm


HED themselves recommended 23 over 25 for aero, when tested with the GP4k. Now that the GP5k has become 2 mm narrower, they recommend 25 and say 28 is slower, despite the fact that the measures well within 105% of the widest point on the fairing. HED: "For all of our 25mm-wide Plus and Black rims, we recommend 23-28mm [labeled] tires. When inflated to normal pressure, the sizes go up 2-4mm depending on the tire model and pressure. For the really fast people, a 23mm tire (inflated to 26mm) is the best option." Since 23 rolls slower than 25, perhaps they are saying 23 is more aero on their wheels? Also, look at AeroCoach Zephyr/Titan data for another hint: the Jet+ 9 is nearly as fast as a titan with 23 tires but less close to a Zephyr (the slower wheel) with 25.



You mention aero performance. I agree that HED was and is one of the fastest. Has no implication on being behind on width for comfort. Narrow will always be fast.

You mention fit, which is just an excuse. All of the mentioned wheels are rim brake wheels and fit in 21st century frames with 21st century brake calipers.

You also mention weight, which is another excuse. The Jets are already heavy and a few mm of aluminum would add around 50g. Negligible.



1-2mm bulge in the Silca article is negligible in the sense that it does not extrapolate to aero properties of a 7mm bulge. 1-2mm difference in tire width makes a noticeable difference in comfort. The fact that you don't understand that 1-2mm can be a lot or not when it is measuring two different things makes me lose hope in this conversation.

I’m going to theorize that back in the day they built these products with a WT rider weight in mind. Not some MOP 230lb triathlete.

Smartly, they’re designing wider tire aero wheels for heavier riders more in line with who are actually buying the most wheelsets.

Instead of a bunch of conjecture about this I think folks need to pump em up to how they need to ride them and look at the profile themselves with their own tires.

The 1 to 2mm may or may not matter, depending on a host of personal choices.

A Jet 9+ is ~28.4mm maximum width.

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http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Yup. I'm getting emotional. You said Jet 9s weren't some of the widest wheels but by your own measure they are. My tagental points? Go look at my first reply to you and then where you took the discussion.

I get what HED says, I've seen data from Aerocoach, and i've seen data from elsewhere. What I haven't seen and the forest you fail to see is that is a HED JET anything slower with a measured 28 than a Zipp or a Enve anything with the same measured tire?

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Thank you.

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It's interesting that the HED Jets are recommended by more than a few people here. Curious why the HED Vanquish isn't recommended though.
Thoughts?

I always figure when a brand/ company is working for you, why change!

Stay with Zipp and just update to the newest set you can afford. If it means anything, I had the 404 fc full carbon clinchers and they were great. Only sold them as I’m building my new bike up as a disc brake bike.

I said they aren't the widest... because they are some of the narrowest by both rim and fairing measures compared to the most popular brands.

Jets are fast, consistently top 2 in aero comparisons (the forest as you say). Not arguing that point anywhere. I'm saying they are currently optimized for smaller tires, as HED will tell you themselves, which is behind the times. If they were optimized for 25, like other brands have done, or their own Vanquish line, they could be overall better wheels relative to the current gen. Basically im asking for an aluminum brake track Vanquish.

Edit: Feels like we are arguing different things. I'm arguing that they aren't wide while you argue that they don't need to be.

First because I think the vanquish line is disc brake only. Second, price. Jets can be found on sale quite often for far less than the vanquish wheels.

So, would anyone use a hed jet 6/9 over a enve 7.8 set?

Asking as I'm considering a jet 6/6 or 6/9 over enve 7.8 simply so I won't need to change brake pads.

Is that dumb?

Is there much difference in performance over a 40k or 70.3?

Its not dumb at all, and I think you'll find the Jets are just as fast if you google.
The only 'advantage' to Enve is the bling factor, same with Zipp. Though I have to say the Jet black wheels are really really nice looking! And the turbine black brake surface will give you better brake performance than any carbon brake surface.

Good to hear. That's what I think I'd like to do. Now, I gotta find a set.