First off - my N=1 experience as a heavy user of indoor training is that I use TrainerRoad to make me faster, and Zwift always makes me slower.

I use Zwift for long tempo group rides (2hours at approx 260W) and for races (which is seriously good fun) and for general just tooling around when i want to kill an hour with easy riding and can't be bothered to do a proper (TrainerRoad) workout.

I also sometimes use it as visuals for Sweetspot TR workouts and do the TR on my iPhone.

But when i follow a TR plan and do it properly i get faster. When i just mess about with Zwift i get slower.

Keep both, they do diffferent things. :)

Kind of a thread derail here but curious as to what plans that worked for you well on TR and how long you stuck to it? I got seriously mentally burned out on TR to the point I dreaded doing bike workouts during late Oly Build and couldn't even survive the early weeks of Oly race because of it.

I switched to Zwift in hopes that I'd abolish that mental burnout, and for the most part it's worked. Zwift is def still not an as-good-fun substitute for great outdoor riding for me, but it's as close as I can get and is something I can do for months/years without hating it or myself. I did Matt Dixons' fast-track triathlete book plan last cycle and got as fast as I got last year doing TR (got the exact same bike split on the same race nearly down to the second) but actually looked forward to most of the bike workouts on Dixon's plan as they were NOT erg-based, and subjectively based so I didn't burn myself out like I did on TR. I ended up running a lot faster too, but to be fair, last year I had some limiting ankle injuries so not a fair run comparison. I just rode the written plans on the Zwift course which worked surprisingly well - loved having rabbits to chase on long intervals and climbs!

The Zwift races are real hammerfests! They are fun, but are so hard that I rarely do them during a training block since I pretty much bury myself on them. I find just riding the Zwift course good enough - if you're feeling frisky, there is almost always a rabbit to catch and they DO make you ride harder. For me specifically, Zwift is allows me to go very, very hard while chasing or passing others on the course (particularly climbs) in Zwift but not so hard that I overdid it like I would in TR.

I'll add as well that the Zwift experience is better with a good setup. A lot of folks here try Zwift on a tiny phone or with a old laptop that barely can run the minimal graphics, and conclude Zwift is a waste of time. I did that same thing with an old laptop at first that was so slow that Zwift stuttured on it, and didn't appreciate Zwift until my wife bought me a new laptop that runs Zwift like a dream.

welcome to zwift. or slowzwift, i should say. the slowtwitch zwift community, which is sizable.

let me ask you this question, and then i might be able to offer some guidance. what is your set up for this? speed & cadence sensor? smart trainer? and, you'll be running the "game" on what kind of computer?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I’ve been using Zwift for about 18 months now and have logged over 8000 miles. During the post season (November-January for me) I do a lot of Zwift racing, but not a ton of bike volume. I find I’m able to push myself a lot more in a race (even if it’s only virtual) than in just a regular workout. I was able to set a 20’ power PR this past January by doing around 3-4 hours a week of riding with two races included. After three months of racing about twice a week I generally do one race a week, sometimes as the first part of my longer Saturday ride.

After February I still use Zwift a bunch, but switch out of race mode and into training mode for the specific upcoming season, bumping bike volume up. I have used Matt Dixon’s Fast Track Triathlete as the basis of my training for the past two seasons and I got a KQ out of it this year. Of my bike training and racing this year, I’d say 90%!or more was on Zwift.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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I've been using TR since Feb 2016. I rapidly built to an FTP of 4.3W/Kg so it was definitely working. During that time i've had a mix of periods of full-on focussed training and some times (usually in the middle of summer) when i've been doing it a bit half heartedly.

I've done a fair mix of sweet spot base, general build and half/full triathlon plans. I have tended towards doing all the longer interval stuff and getting really good at sweetspot and threshold intervals. I would be pretty consistent with the plans but substitute certain hard looking workouts with some of my favourite (easier?) ones and mess about with the plans a bit.

I found out last summer when trying crit racing for the first time that i could still get my arse kicked and i'd get dropped because i hadn't trained in the short, sharp repeatable power. So i focussed on that a bit more and within a short while i was able to stay with the pack all the way and have a go at the sprint, but i'm no sprinter!

I know what you mean by burning out. By the end of this summer i was trashed and looking forward to the end of proper training. After my last race i just stopped. I couldn't be bothered to get on my bike for a week. Since then i have just cruised around in Zone 2 on Zwift a lot and done a few long group rides and i'm doing a lot more running.

I've started doing TR SSB again and i've lost about 20-30W, but it'll come back. For context: I'm M45-50, full-time job with loads of commute and 3 kids. So the plans do work for time-crunched folk like myself.

Zwift is good, for sure. I am a fan and use it a good 3 times a week. But TR is a more serious training tool.

What you're describing is highly personal. I think you're just used to TR, and don't use Zwift to it's potential.
You can have everything that's on TR on Zwift, and more....
You can have structured training plans, custom workouts you can do yourself, or have a coach have access to your Zwift and drop some pre-planned workouts.
The main difference is TR is boring ;-) ...

Louis :-)

If you have a coach, it's really easy to tranfer his (her) structured workouts on Zwift. If you're self coached, you can enter your workouts pretty easily too.
I entered 4 new workouts yesterday. And all my previous seasons workouts are still on my account ( I only subscibe 6 monts/year because of )"(*&*%/?&" canadian winter).
Zwift is also linked to Training Peaks and others, so all your Data transfers automatically if you program it.
I improved just about every aspect of my power curve besides 5'' power. And it's fun. FWIW I do all my road bike sessions on an Insideride roller. Specific TT ones on a fixed trainer.

Louis :-)

Hey Dan, I've been away from ST's Zwift training rides for awhile, and saw the front page article about updates to Zwift. Do you know of any changes to the group structured training ride experience? Maybe a cheat sheet you can point me to? I'd love to try to get the kinks worked out ahead of joining back with the ST group workouts.

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

i don't know of any changes. now, i tried to join our tuesday workout last week. i joined it. but i didn't migrate to the workout. i think it *might* be because my credit card had to get reissued with a new number; i failed to update my zwift payment profile; and i was therefore shut out of the workout. i'm going to test this (now that my payment info is there) and make sure i have no similar trouble. otherwise, if i find out what's happening i'll let you know. we'll also start a new thread just on zwift, perhaps even today, and the fellow who wrote that article to which you refer will curate it (and answer questions like this one of yours).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Highly personal indeed. In my limited Zwift experience, I find it to be more boring than TR+Netflix/youtube. I like zwift racing, it's pretty fun, but just riding around on zwift or even doing structured workouts is pretty boring. Staring at my avatar riding through watopia got old pretty quick.

My N=1 is that Zwift racing is fun in the off-season, but for serious training TR seems more effective to me. A lot of the workouts in zwift are, frankly, baffling in terms of what adaptations they're targeting, and there seem to be much better options in TR as far as progressive, periodized plans based on specific volume constraints.

IF you've got a coach who develops a plan and uploads workouts (or you do this yourself) then I don't see any reason Zwift can't be as good as TR, provided the monotony of zwifting is something you can tolerate for months at a time. I'd probably have to ERG it though, as I have a real hard time not chasing rabbits and therefore deviating from a structured workout.

TR+Netflix/youtube worked ok for me, but my problem with is was that I for most workouts (which were hard for me) there was too much of a disconnect between what I was watching and what I was working out on. It's really hard to redline it and pay attention to a movie plot!

It's still hard to look at the screen while redlining hard on zwift, but for sure, the stimulus of chasing a rabbit up a hill, or hanging with a fast pack, or even going for a Zwift timed segment PR actually ADDS to how hard I work, which I like.

For easy z2 type efforts though, Netflix works great - I actually prefer it, since I won't go off chasing rabbits - although the entire point of TR is to do hard intervals, not easy Z2 stuff. I often put on a flat course on Zwift and instead watch Netflix on easy/recovery days.

Curious - are you pure bike training or tri training for your 'in-season' with TR? A lot of folks have good success with pure cycling with TR, but it's actually almost impossible to find anyone saying that got good results with the TR Oly program, which you'd think would be one of their most popular plans.

This



and this


aren't very congruent with getting dropped in those races.

Anyone who can do 260w of "tempo" for 2 hours and has a 4.3w/kg ftp (meaning at least 4.5 for 20min) shouldn't be getting dropped in a Cat 4/5 crit.

I mean, in a 4/5 race the nominal power of your results won't even touch 4.3w/kg for the 30min race. And that's with NP being inflated due to surging. You should almost be able to TT a win if that power is right. Either that, or you weigh 60kg or less and need to find hillier stuff to race.

I just find it hard to believe you'd have that much a problem if that power or w/kg is right.

Agreed - you do have to tailor what you're watching to the type of workout you're doing. For hard intervals, I pretty much just watch cycling races as they don't require my full attention like a movie would. Although dumb action/horror movies can work for that purpose too.

I was as surprised as you!

Going 300W for an hour NP in a race is a good hard workout but when it’s broken down to multiple 600W sprints out of every corner, over and over again, it can easily expose a weakness.

Previously I did the HIM and IM paths but only following the bike parts as I had a coach for the other bits.

For the last few years I’ve not done Tri so just been TR cycling, but running and swimming randomly for fun.

This is absolutely how I feel about the TR work outs. I felt there was too much intensity and I couldnt recover from it properly. In 2017 I got my power up to 294ftp but could not handle the work when I got there so I had to keep lowering it.
This year I tackled IM Florida with Matts book as well and PB by 2hrs. Couldnt believe the huge difference between coming off Matts work out vs TRs work out. As much as I like TR, I could not recover properly from it so hard for me to go back.

Hello
I used to have a wahoo kickr but I sold it because I was not really using the ERG mode. Right now I have a normal kinetic trainer paired with Quarq. My computer is a bit old. The video was not really smooth and a bit laggy not sure what to upgrade in my comp but still working ok during my trial with Zwift.

If you have the ability to pick up a used iPad I would highly recommend it. Works great for me and love the portability of the ipad- I put it on a music stand and its just inches away from my handlebars.

I've felt the same way about TR as you do. At times, the intensity of the plans was too much. It's a fine line between pushing yourself hard to execute the plan vs pushing yourself too hard where you don't recover. I've switched to having a coach and it's a big difference in the amount of recovery worked into the plan. I still use TR occasionally as I like using the iphone app which is very polished and works well. If I ever follow a TR plan again, I'll certainly be a little more knowledgeable of when I need to dial it back a bit.

Actually depends on how technical you are. Most triathletes suck going around on crit courses. So, I don't find this particularly surprising.
Does he have the fitness to be at the front? Yep. The tech skills, most likely not (from this post).

There is a workout plan called "TT TuneUp" in Zwift. It works better at building FTP than does the plans that are labeled "FTP Builder". You can also throw in your own stuff. Some good 2x20min @95-100% FTP works pretty well. Enjoy Zwift!

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- Jordan

My Strava

Make that N=2. Pretty much all of it.

I'll also sometimes use a steady group ride in Zwift as a replacement for a proper TR workout, but it's often hard to find a ride that fits what I'm looking for. I've been doing the Alp Du Zwift course while doing SS Trainerroad workouts on my phone. It adds a some interest to the workout and I'm quickly working towards the tron bike.

I quite agree. For me it's basically, working from a premise that indoor training is not fun, what can we do to maximize the ROI? I don't engage with riding around Watopia, and I don't engage with staring at TR numbers. But when staring at TR numbers, I feel like I'm getting much more back than I would get in Zwift, or the rides I'm (not) doing in pitch black at 40f and wet.

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.