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Speedmax, Tactical or PR5
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I’m in the market for a new bike and would like one with Ultegra Di2. The three bikes I’m looking at are the Speedmax CF 8.0 LTD, Premier Tactical & QR PR5. I already have race wheels, so I’d plan on selling the wheels that come with the Canyon and Premier. The QR wouldn’t include race wheels at the same price point. I’m coming from a Blue Triad SL, so I imagine all of these bikes would be an upgrade. I know fit is important, but I’m confident I can dial in a good position (I’d plan to see Dean Philips at Fit Werx to get properly set up). In terms of aero and best bang for the buck, I’m leaning towards the Tactical. Anyone else have these bikes in mind and decide which was best?

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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I would lean toward the Tactical as well, although a QR PR5 w/ TriRig Alpha One is a thing of beauty...

how are you going to size your bike? Shouldn't you see Dean Phillips at Fit Werx *before* you buy?

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
I would lean toward the Tactical as well, although a QR PR5 w/ TriRig Alpha One is a thing of beauty...

how are you going to size your bike? Shouldn't you see Dean Phillips at Fit Werx *before* you buy?

E

Eric, I know that would probably be best - having the fit first. I guess I'm just going off my past bike in terms of sizing - the Premier bike looks like it should fit - I'm 6' - and am within Dan's sizing parameters on the Premier website for a medium, which is the size of my old Blue bike.

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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natethomas wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
I would lean toward the Tactical as well, although a QR PR5 w/ TriRig Alpha One is a thing of beauty...

how are you going to size your bike? Shouldn't you see Dean Phillips at Fit Werx *before* you buy?

E


Eric, I know that would probably be best - having the fit first. I guess I'm just going off my past bike in terms of sizing - the Premier bike looks like it should fit - I'm 6' - and am within Dan's sizing parameters on the Premier website for a medium, which is the size of my old Blue bike.

Sizing by height is not effective. You're talking nonsense, it doesn't compute.

When you pay a fitter, you're paying for their expertise, their specified knowledge. Why pay the same price for a fit *after* you've already purchased a bike when that knowledge is of no use?

If you show up with a bike already purchased just know that you're going to drive the fit in order to make your bike work instead of letting the fitter drive the fit making you as optimized as possible and finding the synergies of comfort/power/aerodynamics.

Let the bike be the output, not the input.

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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I don't agree with you.

Other than buying a custom bike, having your exact fit measurements before buying a bike is no different than buying the bike first and having it fit to you. The frame dimensions are the frame dimensions. The fit comes from all the other changeable features of the bike: stem, aerobar, saddle, crank length, etc.

Dan has a good fit model and I would agree, a medium is a proper size for the OP. I am 6-1 and the model put me into a Large. Of course I had to tweak the variables (mentioned above) but that's de rigeuer unless you go full custom.
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Nate, you will not regret the tactical. I've got a year and a half on mine and it's been excellent and as you've read from so many folks, Dan's customer service is awesome. I'm 5'-10" and ended up on a small. It replicated my position from my 54 old P3. The front end is very easy to set up.
I'm a bit north of you in NH if you want to take a ride. If I remember correctly from the Goodales TT our positions are very similar.

At six feet the medium is likely perfect

Good luck

Don
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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If I can answer any questions about the Tactical please let me know. You can also choose what wheels you get so if you already own a disc and 88 front you can always choose our 45’s or get an 88 rear and an 88 rear.

We can help you pick the correct size bike. All our sizes have a fairly large overlap so a short discussion will inform what size is correct to start with.

We set the bike up to get you close on your fit. Once you receive your bike we pay $200 toward a bike fit with the fitter of your choice to get things dialed in.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I can chime in here. Earlier this year I was shopping for a Speedmax and a Tactical. Before I decided, I got a pre bike fit with Jim at Eros. He knows both those bikes quite well as this was around the time Patrick was there for a fitting, and Dan at Premier hired him to do some aero testing. Both bikes fit me, but the speedmax was never in stock, so I went with the Premier. You get A LOT of bike for the Premier. There's no official aero data on the Speedmax but Jim said the Premier was faster. With the Premier if your ftp is up there, it's one of the top 5 aero bikes. On downhill sections of races where my dinky motor is not a variable I have always passed up many of the top bikes, unfortunately they would catch up with me on the flats (not the bikes fault).

What's better than the Premier? The owner Dan and the customer service. He literally replies within 1 minute via email, text or forums. Look on the Premier thread. Last week I took my bike in for a tune-up before a long ride and my race next week, and the LBS accidentally sheared off a screw. I emailed him at 3:46 PST, he dropped everything and went to the UPS store over paid for overnight shipping all within 15 minutes. The next morning the LBS put the part on and I was able to get my long ride in.


There is another post where he overnight a part to another customer at a race. Where else can you talk to the bike company owner that also designed the bike? He knows his bike inside and out.
I highly recommend this bike. Like the Canyon you get a lot of the bike for the money. The only way I would upgrade this bike in the future is if he went a disc brake version other than that it has everything I need.


Both bikes are sexy, and you will get looks/compliments when you ride it. Canyons also are great bikes. In fact I just got an Ultimate last week, but the tube shipped with a puncture. They were able to ship me a spare, so I feel the customer service is there as well, just not as good as Dan and Premier. I didn't think the support would be important when making a decision to purchase a bike, but just emailing Dan a simple question and getting a response quickly has been invaluable.


You can't go wrong with either bike, but if you are trying to podium and get that extra few seconds and for sure want a faster bike then it's the Premier.

IG -frebay | Strava
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [Pathlete] [ In reply to ]
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Pathlete wrote:
I don't agree with you.

Other than buying a custom bike, having your exact fit measurements before buying a bike is no different than buying the bike first and having it fit to you. The frame dimensions are the frame dimensions. The fit comes from all the other changeable features of the bike: stem, aerobar, saddle, crank length, etc.

Dan has a good fit model and I would agree, a medium is a proper size for the OP. I am 6-1 and the model put me into a Large. Of course I had to tweak the variables (mentioned above) but that's de rigeuer unless you go full custom.

Good thing there are no fit limitations when dealing with integrated aerobars, and saddles go to unlimited heights!

___________________________________
MS: Exercise Science
Your speed matters a lot, sometimes you need to be very fast, where sometimes you need to breakdown your speed.
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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i did the speedmax / tactical debate and wound up with a tactical. (i looked at QR as well just for a bit)

as said by others, its pretty awesome to be able to contact the dude that made the bike directly for help / info. Dan's customer support is some of the best i have ever experienced on any purchase.

80/20 Endurance Ambassador
Last edited by: damon.lebeouf: Nov 16, 19 7:22
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [Pathlete] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t know… I agree with your points but still it seems foolish to pay for a bike fit after you’ve already gotten the bike

Pathlete wrote:
I don't agree with you.

Other than buying a custom bike, having your exact fit measurements before buying a bike is no different than buying the bike first and having it fit to you. The frame dimensions are the frame dimensions. The fit comes from all the other changeable features of the bike: stem, aerobar, saddle, crank length, etc.

Dan has a good fit model and I would agree, a medium is a proper size for the OP. I am 6-1 and the model put me into a Large. Of course I had to tweak the variables (mentioned above) but that's de rigeuer unless you go full custom.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Eric - In days past I would agree with you. But .... (and all the following is based on purchasing from a company/fitter affiliate that is not just trying to get you on what ever they have in stock or what they are paid (motivated) to tell the athlete what they should purchase).

Suggesting sizes of bikes happens here on ST every day through the (Official X Brand fitter help) threads. "Hi - XXX I'm Bob, 6'0" tall and have an inseam of X and I do long course racing" "Hi Bob I'm X and you need a Trek XYZ with XYZ bar or Canyon size X or QR X".

Lets take 2008 - medium Cervelo PC3 - I know to get that bike fast I needed to swap out the Profile Design bar, swap crap wheels - Bike came with FSA crank with 175 arm (not a great spec - probably need to swap that), no integrated hydration; adjust/swap stem, seat etc. You definitely should have used a pre-fit to figure it all out.

Now we have learned a lot since then. Between any two of our size Tactical's we have 90 mm of stack adjustment and 160 mm of reach adjustment (both of which are independently adjustable from cockpit length), 60 mm width adjustment center on center elbow pad, swap in tilt, front center adjustment, rear drop out adjustment (wheel base), correct crank arm length and we know all the components work together from an aerodynamic perspective.

So if you call in to us and you are in the middle of the size overlap we can ask how old you are (in the future are you getting more aggressive or less aggressive in drop) , any back or neck issues, long course or short course (big difference in set up), current bike and how do you like the fit, current crank arm length, type cleats etc.. If a manufacturer can not at least get you to the correct size bike - you need to move to a different bike company.

Ride the bike a few weeks and schedule your fit, let the professional fitter know what you like and don't like. Our bike comes with a complete bolt kit and spacer kit so any post purchase adjustment can be made. Now let the professional fitter dial in that athlete.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
Last edited by: dkennison: Nov 16, 19 8:11
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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I bought a Premier Tactical to replace my old Giant Trinity and I couldn't be happier. I am 5'10" and I am sure one of the Premier Tactical bikes will fit you.
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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I’m not sure why what I’m saying is controversial.

I think the OP should get a Tactical, and I think he should get a fit before he purchases... it’s standard.

Second of all, let me just say I’m a big fan of your bikes and your business model and your customer service. As an athlete *and* as a fitter.

That said (and while acknowledging the Tactical is super adjustable, and awesome!), you’re losing me with “aggressive” and age and back pain and long course vs. short course. For me those are not inputs, not in the way I think you’re implying they should be used. I would argue that anyone can have a good fit regardless of age (flexibility), back pain can be caused by no pelvic rotation which is caused by the wrong saddle or the right sat wrongly, and finally the longer the distance the more getting lower and aerodynamics matters (not less!) which is a long way of saying that, all things being equal, a pre purchase bike fit *before* you decide on which Tactical to buy is more valuable than the same priced fit after the fact.

Finally, I *never* fit or size to height. It’s all about the optimal position.

Anyway... back to the thread :)

Eric


dkennison wrote:
Eric - In days past I would agree with you. But .... (and all the following is based on purchasing from a company/fitter affiliate that is not just trying to get you on what ever they have in stock or what they are paid (motivated) to tell the athlete what they should purchase).

Suggesting sizes of bikes happens here on ST every day through the (Official X Brand fitter help) threads. "Hi - XXX I'm Bob, 6'0" tall and have an inseam of X and I do long course racing" "Hi Bob I'm X and you need a Trek XYZ with XYZ bar or Canyon size X or QR X".

Lets take 2008 - medium Cervelo PC3 - I know to get that bike fast I needed to swap out the Profile Design bar, swap crap wheels - Bike came with FSA crank with 175 arm (not a great spec - probably need to swap that), no integrated hydration; adjust/swap stem, seat etc. You definitely should have used a pre-fit to figure it all out.

Now we have learned a lot since then. Between any two of our size Tactical's we have 90 mm of stack adjustment and 160 mm of reach adjustment (both of which are independently adjustable from cockpit length), 60 mm width adjustment center on center elbow pad, swap in tilt, front center adjustment, rear drop out adjustment (wheel base), correct crank arm length and we know all the components work together from an aerodynamic perspective.

So if you call in to us and you are in the middle of the size overlap we can ask how old you are (in the future are you getting more aggressive or less aggressive in drop) , any back or neck issues, long course or short course (big difference in set up), current bike and how do you like the fit, current crank arm length, type cleats etc.. If a manufacturer can not at least get you to the correct size bike - you need to move to a different bike company.

Ride the bike a few weeks and schedule your fit, let the professional fitter know what you like and don't like. Our bike comes with a complete bolt kit and spacer kit so any post purchase adjustment can be made. Now let the professional fitter dial in that athlete.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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And based on your last paragraph I think we are in perfect agreement.

I'm doing an analysis from afar for size determination and general conditions. A very educated ball park.

You are doing a professional bike fit and that's what I want and advocate to have happen with our fit allowance.

Sure if every athlete did a pre-fit and the Tactical was recommenced when it fit the athlete - that would be great. But we are a small brand and don't always get recommended even if its a great fit - so I have to be proactive and provide a solution.

Anyway - I think fitters like you, Anne, Ian, Jim, Dave, Trent, Mark and many others... do a fantastic job. You and others are some of the fitters that I ask our athletes to utilize for their final fit - because I know they will get dialed in. Happy, fast athletes help spread the good word.

Uncomfortable, slow athletes on new bikes - well that's just not right :-)

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
Last edited by: dkennison: Nov 16, 19 12:21
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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One last nit to pick :)

If one of your customers saw me for a fit *before* they bought a Tactical from you, they'd still have not one but two more visits with me as part of the price of the first fit.

So after they got the bike I'd dial them in, partly because it's good business but mostly because I love mucking with bikes, especially new go-fast ones ;)

Eric


dkennison wrote:
And based on your last paragraph I think we are in perfect agreement.

I'm doing an analysis from afar for size determination and general conditions. A very educated ball park.

You are doing a professional bike fit and that's what I want and advocate to have happen with our fit allowance.

Sure if every athlete did a pre-fit and the Tactical was recommenced when it fit the athlete - that would be great. But we are a small brand and don't always get recommended even if its a great fit - so I have to be proactive and provide a solution.

Anyway - I think fitters like you, Anne, Ian, Jim, Dave, Trent, Mark and many others... do a fantastic job. You and others are some of the fitters that I ask our athletes to utilize for their final fit - because I know they will get dialed in. Happy, fast athletes help spread the good word.

Uncomfortable, slow athletes on new bikes - well that's just not right :-)

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Seems a bit daft to me that you'll have the bike fit to you after you've bought it... why not just have the fit now and take the guess work out of the situation. You may find efficiencies in your setup which your old bike hadnt realised etc.

I've just looked at the Premier website to see their sizing and im assuming at 6ft 2" they would place me on a large, but I know from my fitting that I dont fit any of their bikes (well), which would be a heart breaker if I had already purchased the bike. (Pad stack 680, Pad Reach 455, both to centre). Granted I understand im an outlier in general.

For me though the choice of the 3 bikes is the PR5.

@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Got my tactical last month. So happy I did. I was leaning canyon and same thing, never in stock. You will not regret it.

I will say this, it’s fast.
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Based on my experience, I would strongly recommend getting fit first, as well. Generally buying a frame by reach should be fine with most aerobars having so much stack adjust. But in my case for example, I'm at the long-low extreme of my 58cm P5. I'm 6'3.5" and by height, most would recommend the 61cm frame size. It would let me hit my ideal reach easier but I'd be way higher than I am now. So instead I had to go to great lengths so minimize stack and max out reach by chosing a low headset cover, 100m stem with just 12mm stack, a basebar with +10mm pad mount offset, pads with long reach, and long extensions. If you have particular fit requirements, you may not be able to get the fit you want after your purchase or have to go through great lengths like I did. If I got the L or XL version of 90% of bikes out there, I wouldn't be able to hit my fit numbers easily or at all (I have a spreadsheet).
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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dkennison wrote:
If I can answer any questions about the Tactical please let me know. You can also choose what wheels you get so if you already own a disc and 88 front you can always choose our 45’s or get an 88 rear and an 88 rear.

We can help you pick the correct size bike. All our sizes have a fairly large overlap so a short discussion will inform what size is correct to start with.

We set the bike up to get you close on your fit. Once you receive your bike we pay $200 toward a bike fit with the fitter of your choice to get things dialed in.

Dan, can the $200 toward a bike fit be applied if the bike fit comes first? It looks like Fit Werx is around $350 for a fit, and is probably my best and closest option.

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023
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Re: Speedmax, Tactical or PR5 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Yes - It can.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
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