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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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LS didn't race Kona as an amateur, I don't think - I was thinking he meant either Matt Russell, or maybe TG? haha

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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
been there done that.

There's a local masters club I swam with for four months. I was perpetually stuck in the same lane with the old ladies. I would lead freestyle sets, and would flounder on everything else. I am open to giving it another shot (plus using my vasa erg i just bought), but I was wondering if there are alternatives.

Sounds like you need to find a different masters group, then. Additionally, despite what some here will say, improving your swimming in all strokes will make you a better swimmer overall.
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
LS didn't race Kona as an amateur, I don't think - I was thinking he meant either Matt Russell, or maybe TG? haha

Matt ran at UNH, so not him.

I don't have a coach currently, although I did for a few years back in 2013-2015. I've taken bits of pieces that I got from the coaches I worked with as well as what I've found worked for me and over the years have gotten progressively faster. I was able to KQ for the first time this season and had PR runs at both the IM and HIM distance as well as coming within less than a minute of my half marathon PR from six years ago.

When I did work with a coach I felt like I had to do the workouts that were prescribed, and as a result didn't listen to my body as much as I do now. I know in hindsight that I should have better dialogue about this with my coaches. If I feel a bit off I don't push a workout and realize that one (or even a few workouts) isn't that crucial in the grand scheme of things. What is important is consistency over weeks, months and years.

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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]
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trailerhouse wrote:
I thought LS did have a background in running high school and some in college before he started doing drugs.

Yes, I wasn't referring to Lionel. Not only does he have a college run background, but he has never competed as a Kona as an amateur. Might make for a good trivia question.


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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Here is an anecdote for you, I believe there is only one person in North America, that in the last decade, that comes from no sport background (ie. didn't compete in college in either SBR) but competed in Kona as an amateur and then continued to hone their craft and line up on that same Kona start line as a pro. This person was self-coached and was able to do it. What does that tell you about the absolute need to have a coach?


Maybe I should just reach out to him?

Yep, I should have qualified that as a him. There actually is at least one female I know of that did it too. Ironically, the two are from the same city. Maybe it is in the water ;)


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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I have a weird feeling i know who the guy is... does he post here often?
Last edited by: imswimmer328: Nov 16, 19 18:54
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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Toothengineer wrote:
I self coached myself for a year and here is what I found: put in most time / miles / yards ever, never took rest days, got amazingly fit, most workouts ended up in the "gray zone"...... was not "race ready" got injured more and race results went backwards to stagnant.

I went back to being coached.

Stumbled across this thread and would be interested to know what kind of hours/miles you were putting in when self coached versus how much hours/miles you've done when coached, and how you made those coached hours count for more.
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [Northy] [ In reply to ]
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Have to go back to look at hours to be 100% accurate.

Hours wise not coached was prob solid 1-1.5 hours more per week, had builds build with recovery but would end up going little to hard on revert weeks and would increase the hours in not really recovery workouts, then I would get to a big week and would find myself tired by time I was supposed to hit my big workouts. So as I said ended up being gray zone more then high intensity or recovery.

Self coached 12 week IM builds prob around 14.5-15 hours a week avg

Coached more like 13.5 hours a week, mostly since recovery weeks would back off more.

Know this in theory could go back and re work workouts maybe and do a better job being self coached.

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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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Toothengineer wrote:
Have to go back to look at hours to be 100% accurate.

Hours wise not coached was prob solid 1-1.5 hours more per week, had builds build with recovery but would end up going little to hard on revert weeks and would increase the hours in not really recovery workouts, then I would get to a big week and would find myself tired by time I was supposed to hit my big workouts. So as I said ended up being gray zone more then high intensity or recovery.

Self coached 12 week IM builds prob around 14.5-15 hours a week avg

Coached more like 13.5 hours a week, mostly since recovery weeks would back off more.

Know this in theory could go back and re work workouts maybe and do a better job being self coached.

Easy to think that only 1-1.5 more hours/week shouldn't make that much of a difference, but the extra time plus too much grey zone/not enough recovery can surely add up.

Also, impressive to KQ on "only" 13.5 hours a week avg. Hell, even at 15 hours/week most don't even get close!
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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Im not as smart as other triathletes that’s why I don’t comment much, but when the gun goes off I will be ready. I have been racing for 9 years and have gotten pretty fast with out a coach. I don’t have a back ground in s/b/r. I think I just work harder than others. I would say a lot of triathletes over think things, make it more complicated then it should be. I don’t follow a plan, I just swim, bike and run when I want too. No workout has structure, I just go by time. The better shape you get in the faster you can go. Consistency is king and have to learn how to suffer and not stop when thinks get tough.
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [danstu4] [ In reply to ]
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Dan you have different genes then the rest of us.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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I am of the mindset that there are enough free resources out there that anyone willing to put in the effort can be self coached all the way up to a very high level.Those who are unwilling or simply not attentive to detail or the scientific/logistical aspects of fitness may indeed benefit more from a coach, but again it mostly comes down to willingness and personal preference.

The fact you're asking this question leads me to believe you are willing and capable of self-coaching. I highly recommend putting your efforts into improving your swim technique. This is the one thing aside from a bike fit I think most triathletes should be spending money on, unless swimming in the 27/55 minute range for half/full distance. A single video analysis session costs $150-200 and will do more than any book or advice page. Joining a masters swim club even for a few months in combination with this will allow you to effectively have a "coach" without paying massive fees and all while having them physically on location giving live feedback for every swim you do.

With your times I don't see a coach helping your bike at all and likely not much on the run, plus running is simple enough that any improvement in fitness will help. This is simply not the case with swimming as no amount of coaching can improve swim technique unless it's specifically a swim coach or constant on-site or video feedback coaching.
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
I've been racing for seven years. I've seen moderate progression through being self coached (with Trainerroad and Barry P "plans"). My swim is atrocious and is keeping me out of contention for a lot of the races I do. Since I just finished my last race of the season and it's "post-season," and I'm driven to make big improvements this year:

Is $200/mo worth paying for a coach for a moderately fast self-coached athlete (4:20 half iron) or can I get the same results by buying a few books (Swim Speed Secrets, Jack Daniels's book, etc.) and really digesting the material and implementing it?

I have a 35 min non-wetsuit swim, and it's my biggest downfall. My run is moderately okay (6:45/mi off the bike) and my bike is definitely good enough (2:12 this past weekend), but to hang with the guys up front, I'll need to take off significant time from my swim and lower my run a bit.


Wow hi there me from 3 years ago! Very similar times, but my bike was more in the 2:16 range. I was plateauing by myself it turns out. I thought I was working hard.. learned a new meaning. Bike and run both improved dramatically with better periodization and single sport focus periods.

And even though my coach is remote, sending some video and really ramping up my volume has helped me. I'm still not great in the water.. playing catch-up by the bike.. but :35 half 1:15 full down to :30/1:02 and aiming at a 59:59 in IMSR means I'm at least in striking distance.

It's verry nice not having to think about "is this the right workout" and just focusing on doing it. I have to disagree with the guy above. My bike is a bit better than 2:12 for a half now and my run is below 1:20, and personally I couldn't have done it without good coaching.

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Last edited by: MrRabbit: Dec 16, 19 6:23
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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There is a intangible to:

" It's verry nice not having to think about "is this the right workout" and just focusing on doing it."

If you have the time and energy to do the research and plan it out self coaching totally can work, but I am so busy during the week a lot of time on a fine line to mental exhaustion from work its nice not to have to be able not to think about the workouts to much and just follow a plan.

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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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Toothengineer wrote:
There is a intangible to:

" It's verry nice not having to think about "is this the right workout" and just focusing on doing it."

If you have the time and energy to do the research and plan it out self coaching totally can work, but I am so busy during the week a lot of time on a fine line to mental exhaustion from work its nice not to have to be able not to think about the workouts to much and just follow a plan.

It's so hard to be honest with yourself about yourself though. I was a well read as I could have been in my self coached years, but I still think most of my workouts ended up in the grey zone and I borderline overtrained frequently. I was getting really good at running 1:26 HIMs and just thought that was my potential.

Active athletes who coach still usually have coaches. That objectivity is really tough to get out of yourself. I agree some have some it very well, but i believe most would benefit.

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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Now the next step would be always listing to your coach and following a plan to a T. Still working on this, lol.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
been there done that.

There's a local masters club I swam with for four months. I was perpetually stuck in the same lane with the old ladies. I would lead freestyle sets, and would flounder on everything else. I am open to giving it another shot (plus using my vasa erg i just bought), but I was wondering if there are alternatives.

Since getting a good coach locally is like a crap shoot, might I recommend Tower26? It's seriously the best 75$/mo I am spending with my training. You get 4 workouts per week. (I like to run a week behind so that I have the full week's calendar ready at the start of the week). I'm now entering week 8. I still go to a masters class every Sunday as a fifth swim, though I feel i could definitely live without that one, can't say much is being gained there.

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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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Toothengineer wrote:
Dan you have different genes then the rest of us.

This, plus even though Dan is really fast without a coach doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be FASTER with the RIGHT coach. I’m self coached BTW.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you have the bike/ run down...you just need the swim help. As other guys said, get a T26 subscription. I’ve swam with Gerry and Jim this year and took my swim and vo2 to a new level. It’s a commitment but I feel its well worth it.
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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [anthonypat] [ In reply to ]
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Ended up going with a coach.

So far it's interesting in that, I'm doing things at this point in the year that I never would have done myself. It's kept me honest. Only time will tell.

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Re: FOP: Getting a coach versus devoting significant time to studying s/b/r [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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Can you elaborate what that is? ;)
or is it a coach's secret?

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