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Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR
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They will likely go on the new P Series, and bike will be used for up to 70.3 races. Rider weight is about 150lb.

So what's are the pros and cons of each, the ENVE 5.6 vs 4.5AR (both will be setup as tubeless, and probably 25c Conti 5000TL for the 5.6, and 28c Schwalbe Pro One for the 4.5AR)?

Price-wide, they are about the same.
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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I would suggest a solid disc on the rear.
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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That wasn't one of the choices ;)

The reasons I am considering only these two are because I would like to use them on the road bike from time to time, and they seem to be quite versatile.
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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The big downside to the 4.5 AR is that it's hookless so:
- There are limitations to what tires you an use (Conti 5000 and Specialized Turbo 2Bliss being two of the bigger ones)
- If you decided you want/need to go back to using a tube, you are shit out of luck


For the 5.6, the optimal tire width from an aero standpoint is going to be one that measures out to 28mm on the rim (so a tire that is labeled as 25mm - Jim from Ero has said this is the sweet spot which he's tested the gen 2 Enve wheels with a similar external width to the 5.6). For the 4.5 AR, if you follow Josh at Silca's 105% recommendation, you are going to want a tire that measures out to 30.5mm to optimize aero. Per past posts here and on weight weenies, the 28mm Schwalbe Pro One (gen 1) measure between 31 and 32mm depending on tire pressure.


Now the question is, can you get a better RR with the 4.5 AR's to make up for the slower aero? Per Enve, for your weight they recommend running 60 psi for a (measured tire width) of 28mm on the 5.6. For a (measured tire width) of 30.5mm on the 4.5 AR they recommend 45-51 psi (falls in-between two recommendations). Now you can head over to Bicycle Rolling Resistance and compare the Conti 5000 with the 2020 versions of the Pro-One and Pro-One TT (since they are better than the older versions). Now they only typically test a (labeled) 25mm version of each tire, so there is little bit of guessing - you can figure that the (labeled) 28mm will have less rolling resistance than the (labeled) 25mm version. You can also figure that the lower psi you run, the higher ('more watts') of rolling resistance there is. Anyway, here is how things shake out trying best to match with how you would use each tire.
Grand Prix 5000 TL 25mm @ 80 psi = 9.9 watts (at 60 psi it's 11.6 watts).
Pro One TLE Addix 25mm @ 60 watts = 14.7 watts
Pro One TT TLE Addix 25mm @ 60 watts = 10.7 watts


Also worth noting is the puncture resistance testing. The GP 5000 scored 10 & 6 (tread and sidewall). The Pro One was 10 & 5 and the Pro One TT was 6 & 5.


If it was me, I would personally go with the 5.6. Better tire selection, the ability to run tubes/tubed tires if needed, and more aero (due to the greater depth though I *think* the thinner tire and rim will also make it more aero since 'narrow is arrow') while not losing much (if at all) in terms of rolling resistance given the tires you plan on running.

Matt
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Perfect, that's exactly the information I was looking for. ENVE 5.6 with Conti 5000 TL 25c it is.
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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I own both... for speed I see nothing wrong with 5.6 w/5000TL in 25mm. I think that is a winning aero RR combo.

I will add that the 4.5AR are wonderfully comfortable wheel set. Ofcourse I cant put 5000TL on them.... but I did run the old version of Pro-One in 28 on both rim sets and it's a slightly more comfortable ride with the 4.5ARs.
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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I picked the 5.6 because of the hookless tire requirements of the 4.5. I’m now running 32c conti 5000 on the 5.6 at 50-55psi for offseason training and it’s amazing.
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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ENVE Here.

Thought we could comment on your question and hopefully help you make the best decision. 5.6 vs. 4.5AR. But to answer your question directly, we'd recommend the 4.5AR if you're going to primarily use the wheels on your road bike, assuming your P Series has clearance for a tire that will measure nearly 30.5mm (the new Pro One 28 measures slightly smaller than the last generation).

Pros of the 5.6:
  • Faster than 4.5AR in strictly aerodynamic terms when running a 25c tire
  • No tire limitations, you can run tubeless, or non-tubeless tires - However! Tubeless will be a better experience as the tubeless design does make installing and changing inner-tubes a bit more challenging. It's not one of those impossible feats, rather you just have more stuff to fit in a smaller space.

Pros of the 4.5AR:

  • Versatility
  • Comfort
  • Hookless - There are many misconceptions about hookless. While it is true that some tires are not compatible, the vast majority of high-end tubeless tires from reputable brands are. Tubeless tires are getting better every year and the latest round of tires coming from most manufacturers are excellent. Check out the "Tire Compatibility" tab on the 4.5AR product page for the list of recommended tires. (Side note: The latest Specialized S-Works Turbo RapidAir passes our testing and will be added to the approved list soon. This is an example where ENVE worked closely with Specialized to establish compatibility w/ the AR Series rims.) The reason why some tires don't pass our compatibility test has to do with the stiffness of the tire's bead. If the tire's bead is too soft, and there are no bead hooks on the rim to catch it when it stretches under pressure, the tire may blow off. Not good. Consequently, tubeless tires were never designed to establish a seal on the rim's hook beads - rather, in a tubeless system, the tire beads need to achieve a seal on the rim's bead seat diameter (that shoulder on either side of a tubeless compatible rim's tire bed/channel). So, if the tire is stretching off that shoulder, the tire isn't achieving a proper seal, and therefore becomes prone to burping and at worst blow off. Today, most manufacturers making tubeless tires have figured this out and are making great tires that will work without reservation on a hookless type rim. So why hookless? It is the best way to make a tubeless rim. It allows for the use of machined hard tooling to create and establish consistent and precise bead seat diameters on the rim.
  • Aerodynamics - The 4.5 AR is very fast and by far the most stable wheel in our lineup as it relates to crosswind stability. While not as fast in a straight up drag race against our 7.8 or 5.6 in the wind tunnel, it is only a couple watts off the mark.
  • Rolling resistance - The watts lost to the 5.6 can easily be made up for in RR if the surface is rough, and a fast 28c tire is chosen
  • Nearly everyone at ENVE rides and races either a 3.4 AR or 4.5 AR, our lunch rides frequently average 25mph plus... the AR w/ a 28mm tire is simply confidence inspiring.

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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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One minor correction. You may run an inner-tube in our SES AR series wheels, it is just that you cannot run a non-tubeless tire. So, approved tubeless tire + inner-tube is ok... Not recommended, but it's safe. If you get a flat, you can absolutely throw an inner-tube in there.
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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dalava, I think you made the right call. The AR rims are very wide -- less aero, more comfortable. And although I appreciate the fact that hookless saves the manufacturer a ton of money, I'm not yet ready to surrender the benefits of a "hooked" rim. I like the option of using tubed tires.

I ride ENVE wheels six days a week. I think they're the best out there. But I'm not buying hookless yet.
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Chemist wrote:
The big downside to the 4.5 AR is that it's hookless so:
- If you decided you want/need to go back to using a tube, you are shit out of luck



I don't think this is true, per Enve's website on the 4.5AR "One may safely run inner-tubes as long as the tire itself is of a tubeless or tubeless ready construction"

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [ENVE] [ In reply to ]
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Appreciate the info. I had a mate got a bad puncture on the 4.5AR, the sealant and plug couldn’t reseal the tire so he tried to put an inner tube, but between 4 guys we simply couldn’t get the tire (prev gen Scahwalbe Pro One 28c) off the rim with the tools we had (tire levers). We had to cut the ride short because of it. So it was not a confidence inspiring for fixing a tubeless on the side of the road with the AR hookless rims. Am I being scared off too easily?
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I should’ve clarified that meant using a tubed tire + a tube

Matt
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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dalava wrote:
Appreciate the info. I had a mate got a bad puncture on the 4.5AR, the sealant and plug couldn’t reseal the tire so he tried to put an inner tube, but between 4 guys we simply couldn’t get the tire (prev gen Scahwalbe Pro One 28c) off the rim with the tools we had (tire levers). We had to cut the ride short because of it. So it was not a confidence inspiring for fixing a tubeless on the side of the road with the AR hookless rims. Am I being scared off too easily?

I have the 3.4AR and can (and have) gotten the 2020 Schwalbe Pro One 28 TLE off and on the rim with out the use of tire levers. Took me no more than a minutes each time. I have no experience with the older generation Pro One's but the new ones are stupid easy to mount and seat the bead. YMMV
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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The old Pro Ones could be pretty tight, had a similar roadside wrestling match. I've heard the new ones are much easier. Whether mounting a tubeless tire or putting a tube in, it's key to get both beads in center channel.

Anyhow, I'll cast another vote for AR for its phenomenal ride quality and handling characteristics.
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
The old Pro Ones could be pretty tight, had a similar roadside wrestling match. I've heard the new ones are much easier. Whether mounting a tubeless tire or putting a tube in, it's key to get both beads in center channel.

Anyhow, I'll cast another vote for AR for its phenomenal ride quality and handling characteristics.

agree.... old pro-one can be a PITA
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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I echo Carl Spackler’s experience and agree with ENVE tech’s post.
My tri bike is a Cervelo P3X and my road bike is a BMC Roadmachine One.
The wheels I use on these (both disc setup) are:
DT Swiss ARC Dicut 48/62, with 25mm Conti GP5000, tubed (usually pumped to 100 mmHg)— probably very comparable with the ENVE 5.6 SES.
ENVE 4.5 AR disc, road tubeless setup with 28mm Schwalbe Pro One tubeless (usually pumped to appx 60 mmHg).

I am always playing around with my setup, in my experience with these setups using power meters and keeping track of my watts. BTW, the AR disc with 28mm Schwalbes have just enough clearance to ride on the new Cervelo P3X (and PX, since the frames are the same).
- the ENVE 4.5 AR disc are plenty aero. AND, incredibly well-behaved and stable in crosswinds. The ride is AMAZING-smoothes out road irregularities, bumps, and even potholes, and complements the otherwise incredibly stiff carbon everything else.
- I have to admit, the DT Swiss aero wheels with 25 mm Conti GP 5000s inflated rock hard IS a bit faster, probably by a few watts (about 5-10 min difference on my 65 mi route). I would guess the DT Swiss ARC 48/62 are very similar to the ENVE 5.6 SES in overall performance, and reasonably addresses your comparison question.

How has this impacted my wheel choices so far?
- I use the ENVE 4.5 AR disc on my road bike all the time AND on my tri bike for all my training rides (which by far is the majority of miles I put on the tri bike). And I use the narrower 25 mm Conti GP 5000 tires pumped rock hard with my tri bike on race days.
- REASON, the incredible stability of the ARs on plush 28 mm road tubeless tires makes it FAR more comfortable to stay in aero position all through my long training rides. And believe me, MUCH more confidence-inspiring (ie, I feel in better control, more “planted”, and stable) while covering bumpy roads in aero position—this difference in sense of stability, comfort and confidence is LARGE. Also, because I am less tense while in aero, I feel more relaxed, my lower back feels better, and FAR more important, I feel fresher at the end of my training ride, so my NEXT workout is higher quality (ie, brick run and anything I do the following day).
- So with this arrangement, most of my riding miles are on the ENVE ARs and go towards more comfortable yet still fast rides that in totality result in higher quality training volume in general due to less post-ride fatigue. I save the slightly faster yet more bone-jarring ride for race days.

Now, I just bought a pair of ENVE 7.8 SES and plan to outfit with Conti GP 5000 TLs (Ben Hoffman’s setup for IM WC/Kona) as my “fast” race wheels. I STILL plan to do most of my miles with the 4.5 ARs for reasons stated above, but I am hoping the 7.8s with road tubeless will get me slightly fresher for my run on race days. I’ll let you know in the spring!

Cheers,
J
Last edited by: Jae K: Dec 6, 19 16:41
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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Getting ready to make the same decision. Most likely going with the 4.5AR. Any updates? What did you get?

Brian

"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." --Chief Seattle
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Re: Deciding Disc Wheelsets - ENVE 5.6 or ENVE 4.5AR [osugasman] [ In reply to ]
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To add a little bit to the post.... I have 5.6s on both my road and Tri bike....Scott Addict and P5 Disc. Im a huge fan of the versatility of them as you can race on em real well, have never had any issues with crosswinds before (Iv'e had gusts on the old 404/808 combo before this), and they are pretty darn light for a deepish wheel set. I ran GP5000 clinchers on them since ive gotten them and just recently switched over to GP5000TL. I didn't mount myself but they said they went on pretty easily compared to others. For me they checked all the boxes. Was thinking maybe 4.5AR for the Scott Addict but I don't generally go on harsh/dirt roads with it. Also with the tubeless now that should help out a bit if the roads ever got rough, but not the kind of riding I really do. Road bike I think 4.5AR is a viable option to the 5.6 but I think for Tri's 5.6 100%. Given the option today id still go 5.6 on both.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/11645943 https://www.instagram.com/timeforicecream/
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