I think the question is way too complicated for a poll. Most folks on the thread address just having a pro license or not. That's only one way to address the issue. There are too many variations in how one could split a professional vs an amateur racer. For example, to maintain NCAA eligibility (amateur) you can't take sponsor money AND there are other requirements such as a 25-hr per week training limit (which is broken all the time, but that's another topic), GPA, etc. The NCAA model has many flaws and the money question is likely to change in the near future, but it's a starting point. Do you apply training time limits to amateurs, or coaching limits, or money spent on a bike? It might seem ridiculous to ask those questions with regards to triathlon, but similar limits are applied in other sports.

I can't say I fully understand Sergio's situation. Everyone I think is against hopping back and forth between pro and amateur divisions. I want a path for ex-pros and high-level amateurs to be able to race their peers, but defining those divisions is tricky.

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Right, I totally agree pros need age groupers, but pros also need someone to beat up on and its not much of a pro race until you get pros who are kind of in the same time zone to compete with. So if someone is not even in the same remote time zone, it makes sense that they go back to age group down to the minor leagues and get their act together and then go back to pro when they are ready for it. If that means that some current age group champions or podium guys get pushed back in the results, that's the reality of them just being slower until those guys who dropped down to the minors get in shape and move back to the pro ranks. If this allows Mr. SlowPro to get some age group glory, scoop up some sponsors on account of age group glory and give him a chance to regroup and take another shot and doing well as a pro, them more power to this athlete. If some age groupers get shoved down in the pecking order in their age group, well that's the reality of being slower than someone else.

I also understand that this position does not sit well with those in 25-39 who are currently FOP age grouper who would be most effected by these "drop downs". In all other age groups there is not category to banish fast full time athletes up to (ex: Vino or 45-49...they are stuck with Vino).

What your forgetting is that pro's already race "age group" in many non-professional races....Most especially the newer lower level pros who race likely more local events in addition to selected events.

ETA: Beyond that, all you guys coming up with clever methods to jump around divisions or trying to figure out who trains the most or who's more "professional" than the next guy.....yall are making it far too complicated than what it currently is, and again how many times has this specific circumstance happened? Your making an problem to fit your solution. There is no issue with pro's wanting/needing to jump back and forth.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Exactly, its not a problem in general for someone with a pro card moving back to age group because most of the time, they don't go back until they retire. But when they do, its exactly the scenario of Monty getting sanctioned by USAT for racing in the legends wave with the pros in Wildflower or everyone getting bent out of joint because they got beaten by Sergio in Kona....then everyone gets tied up and bent out of joint. If pros were allowed to decide on any given weekend which division they want to race in, then its not a problem.

Some age groupers just want people faster than them not being able to race them. The problem is so infrequent that its generally not affecting most age groupers, until in exceptional circumstances it does. Just let the pros drop down if they feel they want to, and its solved.

Its ONLY a problem for 25-39 year old fast-ish age groupers who would be slower than slow pros who don't want to go head to head with slow pros.

No it's because when the pro's go and race in the AG ranks in races, they only race for overall and nothing else. So they get to race, they get the competition and then they simply get magically left out of the awards.....that's the part you seem to be missing. Pro's can do just as you want them to, and the answer is to simply ex them out of the category results.

Nothing more, nothing less. Solves every one of your issues, and solves everyone else's "we want our win and not get taken by the pro".


So again your creating a problem that has already been solved in our sport. This is a complete outlier/oddity circumstance.



7. Pro athletes will race with their age group wave (under IRONMAN Age Group Competition Rules).
8. Pro athletes are not eligible for age group awards or World Championship qualifying slots and will not be recognized as the winner of the overall age group race or their age group.
9. Pro athlete results will not be included in the overall age group results or individual age group results.
10. IRONMAN.com will include the overall finish position of Pro athletes in the overall rank position and categorize them in the division MPRO or FPRO.
11. For mass start events, any Pro athletes that cross the finish line first should be referenced as the Male or Female “First Overall Finisher”, with additional ref

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I’d like to nominate Dev for ST 2019 Don Quixote award

The only thing I get from this thread is to remind myself to hide Dev from my feed. 95% of his contribution is useless drivel.

My 2c:
1. Most AGer's at the pointy end do care about podium positions, especially at Kona. Competition and racing is what drives them (me?). Allowing current pro's to mix it up in AG categories (and still get AG awards) whenever they feel like it is just disingenuous to AG's who train hard and do care about AG results.
2. I despise it when I have to race against a former pro in my AG who trained at an elite level for years. Nothing you can really do there except to look at the "cooling off" period. IMO the same calendar year rule is silly. I once raced a guy who was a pro, who decided to give up his pro license so that he could qualify and race the next 70.3 Worlds as an AGer. One race he's racing Pro div, 3 months later I'm racing him in my AG and he's beating me by 30min in a 70.3... blegh. It used to be 2 years a while back, don't know why they changed it...
3. I also despise racing against "professional amateurs" who have better resources, sponsors and train more than actual pros - when I have a full time job and 2 kids and can scrape together a 15hr training week at most - but its their choice not to take a pro licence and I begrudgingly don't blame them and still try to finish in the same time zone as them. (At least Lars Stormo has stopped deluding himself that he's an "engineer" on training camp 300 days a year, and is taking a pro licence ... Good on you sir.).
4. Sergio made a mistake. He may be a nice guy and people like him but he broke the rules as currently written. He should be DQ'd from Kona results and he (and others) won't make the same mistake again. Tough love, Sergio.

Happy days.

5. I also despise racing against people who have better genetics than me. Thats not fair.
6. I also despise racing against people who make smarter gear choices than me. Shame on them for doing their research and buying fast stuff.
7. Also we should have further break down age group categories by height to weight ratios so I'm only racing other people who are 5' 9.75" and weigh 134-136 pounds.

To be clear. I agree with some of your thoughts but you're simply not going to get a perfectly even playing field. You can't complain about everything that slightly disadvantages you, especially when a lot of it came from someone working for it.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

You're getting me wrong.... I'm not complaining

I may not like racing ex-pro's and professional amateurs (or people that are just faster than me), but I accept that's part of the deal and sport in general.

And trust me, I'm the one doing the research and buying as much "fast" gear as I can ;)

5' 9.75" and weigh 134-136 pounds

- How do you know my exact measurements?

I don't have any issue with what you just said above. This speaks to the issue we have the pro qualification being too easy (at least for USAT) and several AG'ers going pro before they are even remotely close to being ready. Nothing wrong with those slower C- to C+ pro's coming back to AG racing as that's where they really belong (since there race is essentially over after they get to T1 cause they can't swim) and trying to develop themselves more or just sticking to AG racing. Even when these pro's do an AG only IM race, I don't have an issue with it but I will say I don't understand the reasoning behind it. I have the standpoint of "Go pro and fully commit to it for a year". Going back and forth doesn't help one bit with the athlete..... it just creates a big mental insecurity for ones future success.

What you have referred to in previous posts is what I'm not a big fan is those B- to A level pro's or those who consistently place well in the pro field (top 10 or podium) being able to go back and forth from pro to AG within the same calendar year. Sure you won't see Jan Frodeno, TO, Sebi, Ryf, Rinny, etc racing in the AG category but you probably would see those B- to A- pro's doing it to either get their name out there more, world champs qualify, or satisfy some personal mental challenge. And most of these B- to A- pro's are not working full time or have real jobs in my opinion. Sure they have jobs (coaching, bike shop, etc) to help put food on the table but they are FAR from the AG stereotype the AG categories were originally designed/created for. And yes there are currently many AG'ers out there who are "professional AG'ers" and defy that AG stereotype but they are still by FAR the minority of the paying customer.

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blog

I think we can agree that B- pros dropping down to age group is the EXCEPTION, but when it happens things blow up and everyone gets bent out of joint.

We would not be talking about this if Sergio did not race age group in Kona.

You're right that it may be 'too easy' to get pro card, but people may be inclined to take it, give it a try (for a season, for multiple seasons, or maybe even a few races).

On the flip side we have those ProAmateurs who are slow swimmers and would never be able to be in ANY race as a B- pro because their competition woudl end in 200m of the start of the swim and choose to keep racing age group for the bragging rights. I don't see a good reason why the B- pro (or C+ pro) who is slightly faster than Mr. ProAmateur should be excluded from competing again at any time with Mr. ProAmateur. How many hours someone works, how many kids etc is irrelevant. There are many reason, why C+ pro may want to not race pro, and I can see these as valid reasons:

1. recovering from injury
2. have not been able to train and just plain out of shape due to life getting in the way (kids, family, job)
3. they want to go to Kona and get race experience in Kona this year for the environmental scenario, while they keep racing local pro races to get experience on the more solo form of pro racing

I see why those in 25-39 don't want faster people who are in no man's land (much faster than most age groupers, too slow to be real pros) banished to the pro zone so they can keep their age group Kona slots and prizes. But in 40+, you have to race the likes of Vino. In theory we should banish Vino to slow pro category. Him and Craig Alexander are the same age and Craig keeps racing pro because he's faster than most pros. Aside from his swim, Vino is faster than most pros on the bike, slower than them in a swim and a slow pro on the run. Vino is the definition of ProAmateur that no one really wants to race, but we're stuck with people like that in the age group world.

...and yes, I am getting push back from many of you in 25-39 who are directly affected if pros can drop back to age group. There are almost no pros on here to comment, and largely those 40+ are already racing the fastest athletes in the world of their age. Its just under 39 where the ability of pros to move around or not makes a difference.

Hey, its a free world. You are welcome to block anyone, and if I cared about a stupid high school popularity contest I'd never post on slowtwitch for sure....clearly I don't care about that.

In any case, you're complaining about not wanting to compete with anyone who is not like you, in the same boat and a lawyer from Johannesburg (well, that's what you have in your profile). Unfortunatley the world is unfair and there are people with more time and money and maybe genetically more blessed. Whether they don't get to compete with you this year of if they drop back to age group next year, we're always stuck competing with people with more time+money+genetics than us (your example of Stormo)

I think the rule that they can't drop back till next year is kind of dumb. You can race pro on Dec 31 and then race age group on Jan 1. How is that physiologically any different than competing pro in Sep and 2 weeks later racing age group. I'm saying that all of us should just deal with whoever shows up and those with pro card, If they want to for a variety of reasons, should be able to choose if and when they want to not compete for money and just race in age group.

I do think we can have a discussion without turning the discussion towards a popularity contest of which posters you love or not. Now feel free to block me all you want.

Hello devashish_paul and All,


I like many of your thoughts ...

Please call me naive ....

Why make it so complicated?

Change the rules ....

Pro category is eliminated ...... Everybody races in age and gender groups ... including what used to be called pros ...

Everybody/anybody can have sponsors .....

Wave starts with first gender wave participation determined by past performance. ... or by age wave if no past performance to qualify for first wave.

Overall fastest 10 racers each gender, depending on amount of prize money ..... get some money .... all others get medals and/or a wood bowl and congratulations.

Also first 3 in each age group get a podium picture .... with male winners getting a kiss from the podium girls .... who are age rated to match the podium finshers age.

Podium winners get WADA tested after the race ...... along with some random testing ....

..... and Sergio gets off on a technicality and a 'do not do it again' warning .... until the new rules take effect on 1 January 2020 .... when the problem is eliminated.


Fairness Triumphs!


After being in effect for a few short years the slower racers will complain that they are not getting any money and that they are great in their age group.

Adjustment will be made to eliminate the podium girls and some small amount of money will be allocated to podium winners in each age group.

More time passes and podium winners will strike for higher prizes and the elimination of CRISPR humans with genetic superiority.

A separate category of racers called Pros will have all the CRISPR humans and start in the first wave.

Everybody lives happily ever after.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

seems like there is a case for scrapping the age groups and moving to a category system, like pro/1/2/3

structure your regional or 'typical' races to have a pro/1 race; a cat 2 race; and a cat 3 race

Pros are pros
Cat 1 are your profamateurs and kq types
Cat 2 are your average weekend warriors
Cat 3 are your newbies

Layer on some masters divisions if you want?

as screwed up as cycling is, the category system does seem to ensure a more equal playing field

I just wish that every race where it’s feasible had an open wave for head to head competition.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I'm saying that all of us should just deal with whoever shows up and those with pro card, If they want to for a variety of reasons, should be able to choose if and when they want to not compete for money and just race in age group.

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I'm still not sure what's wrong with just dealing with the way the rules are currently and that they dont really bring in any circumstances that you want to bring in until this specific case.


But again I've asked you why not just scrape the whole category system if your in favor of people jumping around. Why should an AG not be allowed to get money if he's fastest guy on the day? So it seems like you continue only go half way with your theory.


Especially in Long course where essentially 96% of the rules are the same for AG and Pro's.....just disregard the whole system under your theory imo.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

As I posted in response to @realdeal above, you're getting me wrong, I'm not complaining. Maybe the use of "dispise" was a bit strong. So too my snarky comments about your posts... you're popular enough round here ;-)

I totally accept that having to race former Pros and ProAmatuers is, for better or worse, part of our sport and pretty much impossible to stop or make rules for. I might not like it but I accept it for what it is and to be honest it motivates me to train harder / more efficiently to be the best I can be racing against them. As you say, there will always people who are just more genetically gifted and faster than you. I'm more "genetically blessed" as a male with more testosterone than females. Should we also do away with gender categories and let the women race against the males?


However, I do feel that excluding current pro's from racing AG, does at least level the playing field for AG racing somewhat (which many AGers do actually care about). You seem to think that no AGers care about winning or placing in their measly little 5-year AG category. That may be for 90% of AGers out there who just to triathlons for there own personal reasons, but not all.

Take an example: In a month's time we have our national LD champs. I'm training really hard because I would like to win or podium in my AG, so that I can say to my kids and work colleagues that one time in my life I was a National AG Champion. Vain, I know, but that motivates me. I'd be super bummed if James Cunnama rocked up on race morning and decided to race my AG, just because he felt like doing an easy training day and didn't feel like going head-to-head with Matt Trautman, Kyle Buckingham or Brad Weiss in the pro wave - and beats everyone by 40min to take the AG title... You think that would be fair to guys like me?

This is also easy to legislate for. I.e. race elite/pro in any year and you can't race AG in the same year.


I think the rule that they can't drop back till next year is kind of dumb. You can race pro on Dec 31 and then race age group on Jan 1.


That's exactly my point. There used to be a 2year cooling off period for pros to be able to go back to AG racing, which I think was good. It may not be "nice" for your C-level pro's who can't cut it and want to drop back to AG racing, but that's a risk that they will be aware of and factor into their decision to turn pro in the first place. This would also disincentivize people from turning pro before they are really ready and committed.

... should be able to choose if and when they want to not compete for money and just race in age group.

That's fine too - happy for a pro to race in AG if they want (for any reason) - they should just not be eligible for AG placings / KQ etc... James can come do an easy training day with me, he just can't be AG Champ.

There used to be a 2year cooling off period for pros to be able to go back to AG racing,//

Did you just make this up, or was it really a thing? I have never heard anything like this happening, just wondering which organization had a 2 year "cooling" off period?

Don't care.

I just want to race and not spend all my money doing so. A race is where other people show up. You don't like it, don't show up. That fair.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2