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Re: Ftp 180 [TheRiles] [ In reply to ]
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TheRiles wrote:
It looks like you and I, my friend, are middle of the pack for the foreseeable future. Not that we cant or shouldn't work to be better, just that realistically it's going to take a lot of consistent training to get there.

In 2018 I found myself in a similar situation; I felt under prepared for my upcoming race, burnt out, & injured. Taking a hard look back at my training, I realized I hadn't been as consistent as I thought I was.

I decided to just have fun with my race; I cheered on everyone who passed me, I cheered every volunteer like they were the ones about to cross the finish line, & gave all the spectators big thumbs up & my best grin. I had a blast!

I'm fairly new to Triathlon, I do sprints and Olympic so I don't really have any specific advice. I had really good results this past year by finding a training plan and sticking to it. The trick is to be honest with yourself about your available time & ability, then choose one that looks like it is doable, but will challenge you 2, maybe 3 workouts a week.

I'd also take a hard look at your overall nutrition. Even though some of the workouts you describe sound pretty hard, I suspect that poor nutrition could be holding you back from really pushing hard, and/or compounding it by not allowing you to recover. Look into some good whole grains and plenty of veg to go with all that protein.

Finally, here's some podcasts to listen to on your commute, both for info & inspiration.
Tower 26
Trainer Road Podcast
That Triathlon Podcast
Simon Ward The Triathlon Coach

Best of luck.


Thanks for the podcasts!

Yes, last year I fucked up. Pure and simple and it was fun but painful. This year I set aside more effort but obviously not enough.

Running improved so much I assumed cycling would be similar. I'll enjoy it again but this time ill carry on cycling for next year

😂
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Re: Ftp 180 [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
That comment was made before he edited his comments to include specifying it was a 70.3 not an IM. Doing a half w/ 5-6 hours isn't much. That's 1 long ride and then only 2 90 min sessions. So I'd still say set your expectations accordingly.

Yup sorry about that. I always forget the full iron haha
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Re: Ftp 180 [EricTheBiking] [ In reply to ]
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EricTheBiking wrote:
Bonmaklad wrote:
Tom_hampton wrote:
Bonmaklad wrote:

7 weeks of training and bad fueling for a bonk of 7.5 hours and 8 months of dedicated training for maybe 7 hours 😂😂😂😂😅😢😅🤣😂🤣


Ok. Please be honest. You have NOT done 8 months of dedicated training the way anyone in ST would define that. It has been haphazard, sporatic, and poorly planned. It's been interrupted by illness and injury for 4-6 weeks at a time.

All of this means that, yes, you are in roughly the same shape that you were last year. It's not a mystery, and it shouldn't be a surprise.

Part of training and racing is the honest, objective analysis of your prior training. Please be fair and honest when you characterize your training.

If you want to go faster, then in the next 14 months... you will need to train 90% of the days between now and then. You can't miss 4 weeks or 6 weeks at a time, and you can't train for 4 hours a week and then 8 hours and then jump to 14 hours for a few weeks and think it's going to go fabulous. Triathlon is pretty brutal that way. You can't fake your way through a 70.3.


Even my strava shows constant training. But OK... U do u boo

Um, you are the one who said you took 4 and 6 weeks off. Is this you? https://www.strava.com/athletes/13836140 From what you're logging on Strava your training seems anything but consistent.

-Eric

I will make more of an effort to record everything. This allows better Objectivity 😂
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Re: Ftp 180 [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
.... Doing a half w/ 5-6 hours isn't much. That's 1 long ride and then only 2 90 min sessions. So I'd still say set your expectations accordingly.
I think 5-6hrs per week on the bike is pretty reasonable for 70.3 providing you're not trying to be at the pointy end. If that's what you mean by setting expectations accordingly I agree, but if you mean 5-6hrs is "undertrained" in general, I'd disagree. I think 10-12hrs per week total is perfectly reasonable for a respectable 70.3 performance, and you probably won't be spending much more than half of that on the bike if you're giving the run and swim attention too. Sure, the guys at the front will likely be doing significantly more, but I think the OP has now accepted he isn't in that territory, and he should, I think, be able to improve significantly with sensible, consistent, training, without necessarily increasing his total training time above 5-6hrs a week.
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Re: Ftp 180 [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Yes thus why I said plan accordingly. If your trying to just finish, that’s good enough. If your trying to have big improvements that’s not enough imo. No where did I say anything about being undertrained, I said 5-6 hours isn’t much time in the bike for a 56mi bike leg, so thus plan your goals accordingly.

And at that short of time there’s a huge difference between 5 and 6 hours. But when your looking at being on the bike for ~3 hrs your going to only have reasonable results on that few of times riding. But if your starting with an 7+ hr base race then yes you’ll have decent improvement, which I believe the OP was that time range at some point.

So as I said plan accordingly, the most important thing any athlete can do.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 29, 19 3:55
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Re: Ftp 180 [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
.... Doing a half w/ 5-6 hours isn't much. That's 1 long ride and then only 2 90 min sessions. So I'd still say set your expectations accordingly.
I think 5-6hrs per week on the bike is pretty reasonable for 70.3 providing you're not trying to be at the pointy end. If that's what you mean by setting expectations accordingly I agree, but if you mean 5-6hrs is "undertrained" in general, I'd disagree. I think 10-12hrs per week total is perfectly reasonable for a respectable 70.3 performance, and you probably won't be spending much more than half of that on the bike if you're giving the run and swim attention too. Sure, the guys at the front will likely be doing significantly more, but I think the OP has now accepted he isn't in that territory, and he should, I think, be able to improve significantly with sensible, consistent, training, without necessarily increasing his total training time above 5-6hrs a week.

Just confirming A, 5 to 6 hours a week was the plan for just the cycling.

I have 10 to 14 hours put aside for Ironman training

The aim was 6 to 8 hours the first 4 months and then gradual rise from 12 weeks to go to 14 hours.

The thought process was building a solid base

E. G for this week, I have 10 hours planned. The highest training week is 14 hours and that's with 4 weeks to go

Although, as I sit here with throbbing legs after a ftp training session on zwift last night haha, I think that's the session that was missing
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Re: Ftp 180 [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Yes thus why I said plan accordingly. If your trying to just finish, that’s good enough. If your trying to have big improvements that’s not enough imo. No where did I say anything about being undertrained, I said 5-6 hours isn’t much time in the bike for a 56mi bike leg, so thus plan your goals accordingly.

And at that short of time there’s a huge difference between 5 and 6 hours. But when your looking at being on the bike for ~3 hrs your going to only have reasonable results on that few of times riding. But if your starting with an 7+ hr base race then yes you’ll have decent improvement, which I believe the OP was that time range at some point.

So as I said plan accordingly, the most important thing any athlete can do.


Honestly, I think anyone will an OK fitness could finish the 70.3 with next to no training

I presumed my 7.5 hour was the equivalent of a 2.5 hour half marathon. I.e u basically fucked up

So I presumed like a half marathon. If u do some training you will improve.

Say sub 7 hours?

Then if you put in a good amount of training. You would get sub 6 hours

Then I presumed that 4 hours is the grand masters, 4.5 hours is the naturally gifted (similar to the guys doing sub 1hr 30 half marathon)

But maybe... Around that 5 hour mark is the guys who are not gifted but work at it. I. E like running 1hour 45 half marathon

There was enough people who agreed with me that shooting for 5 hours was mad but do able and if I missed, its missing with a sweet as time of 5:20-5:40

But alas. I think the bike... I didn't ride a bike when younger. I refused the bike training when I trained for swimming events and so the first time I really rode was 3 years ago

Maybe.... Cycling requires a muscle that's under developed.

I say this because..... Last night I cranked out over 400 Watts for almost a min. I can hold good power with my creatine stores.... But yeah, nothing longer than 5 mins
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Re: Ftp 180 [Bonmaklad] [ In reply to ]
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Bonmaklad wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Yes thus why I said plan accordingly. If your trying to just finish, that’s good enough. If your trying to have big improvements that’s not enough imo. No where did I say anything about being undertrained, I said 5-6 hours isn’t much time in the bike for a 56mi bike leg, so thus plan your goals accordingly.

And at that short of time there’s a huge difference between 5 and 6 hours. But when your looking at being on the bike for ~3 hrs your going to only have reasonable results on that few of times riding. But if your starting with an 7+ hr base race then yes you’ll have decent improvement, which I believe the OP was that time range at some point.

So as I said plan accordingly, the most important thing any athlete can do.


Honestly, I think anyone will an OK fitness could finish the 70.3 with next to no training

I presumed my 7.5 hour was the equivalent of a 2.5 hour half marathon. I.e u basically fucked up

So I presumed like a half marathon. If u do some training you will improve.

Say sub 7 hours?

Then if you put in a good amount of training. You would get sub 6 hours

Then I presumed that 4 hours is the grand masters, 4.5 hours is the naturally gifted (similar to the guys doing sub 1hr 30 half marathon)

But maybe... Around that 5 hour mark is the guys who are not gifted but work at it. I. E like running 1hour 45 half marathon

There was enough people who agreed with me that shooting for 5 hours was mad but do able and if I missed, its missing with a sweet as time of 5:20-5:40

But alas. I think the bike... I didn't ride a bike when younger. I refused the bike training when I trained for swimming events and so the first time I really rode was 3 years ago

Maybe.... Cycling requires a muscle that's under developed.

I say this because..... Last night I cranked out over 400 Watts for almost a min. I can hold good power with my creatine stores.... But yeah, nothing longer than 5 mins

5:20 on a legit course for someone your age and size would be a very respectable feat
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Re: Ftp 180 [Bonmaklad] [ In reply to ]
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Bonmaklad wrote:
Ali
Most of my sessions are zone 2 heart rate. I've bought the power metre now to get more accurate.

So if I am doing nothing wrong. Then this is just how long it takes. Maybe I should have done longer cycles last month.

Zone 2 stuff has given me great fitness but my legs on the bike seem to never have any power. It's rather frustrating

All this thread was about was planning... I wanted to know roughly how much better would I expect to get in 6 weeks, so I can plan.

Heading into my first 70.3 I was doing pretty most of my work in Z2 also. I didn't gain much speed but definitely got comfortable to go the distance at Z2.

I don't think you can expect to pick up much power/speed over the next few weeks. You are overtraining and if you continue as is you will burn yourself out completely. Start getting plenty of rest. Get some long rides in so that you are comfortable in the saddle and balance it with some interval work.

It is better to enter the race 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained.
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Re: Ftp 180 [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
Bonmaklad wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Yes thus why I said plan accordingly. If your trying to just finish, that’s good enough. If your trying to have big improvements that’s not enough imo. No where did I say anything about being undertrained, I said 5-6 hours isn’t much time in the bike for a 56mi bike leg, so thus plan your goals accordingly.

And at that short of time there’s a huge difference between 5 and 6 hours. But when your looking at being on the bike for ~3 hrs your going to only have reasonable results on that few of times riding. But if your starting with an 7+ hr base race then yes you’ll have decent improvement, which I believe the OP was that time range at some point.

So as I said plan accordingly, the most important thing any athlete can do.


Honestly, I think anyone will an OK fitness could finish the 70.3 with next to no training

I presumed my 7.5 hour was the equivalent of a 2.5 hour half marathon. I.e u basically fucked up

So I presumed like a half marathon. If u do some training you will improve.

Say sub 7 hours?

Then if you put in a good amount of training. You would get sub 6 hours

Then I presumed that 4 hours is the grand masters, 4.5 hours is the naturally gifted (similar to the guys doing sub 1hr 30 half marathon)

But maybe... Around that 5 hour mark is the guys who are not gifted but work at it. I. E like running 1hour 45 half marathon

There was enough people who agreed with me that shooting for 5 hours was mad but do able and if I missed, its missing with a sweet as time of 5:20-5:40

But alas. I think the bike... I didn't ride a bike when younger. I refused the bike training when I trained for swimming events and so the first time I really rode was 3 years ago

Maybe.... Cycling requires a muscle that's under developed.

I say this because..... Last night I cranked out over 400 Watts for almost a min. I can hold good power with my creatine stores.... But yeah, nothing longer than 5 mins

5:20 on a legit course for someone your age and size would be a very respectable feat

Really? Is that cos I'm fat 😂😂😭😅🤣😢😅😭

Haha

It seems like in taupo, top 50% are below 6 hours

That's why I presumed it's like a 2 hour half marathon
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Re: Ftp 180 [TIT] [ In reply to ]
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TIT wrote:
Bonmaklad wrote:
Ali
Most of my sessions are zone 2 heart rate. I've bought the power metre now to get more accurate.

So if I am doing nothing wrong. Then this is just how long it takes. Maybe I should have done longer cycles last month.

Zone 2 stuff has given me great fitness but my legs on the bike seem to never have any power. It's rather frustrating

All this thread was about was planning... I wanted to know roughly how much better would I expect to get in 6 weeks, so I can plan.

Heading into my first 70.3 I was doing pretty most of my work in Z2 also. I didn't gain much speed but definitely got comfortable to go the distance at Z2.

I don't think you can expect to pick up much power/speed over the next few weeks. You are overtraining and if you continue as is you will burn yourself out completely. Start getting plenty of rest. Get some long rides in so that you are comfortable in the saddle and balance it with some interval work.

It is better to enter the race 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained.

The sleep aspect is a fair point as well. I have recently increased sleep from 6-7 hours to 8-9 hours and wow its nice
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Re: Ftp 180 [Bonmaklad] [ In reply to ]
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So your goal is 5hrs and then "soft goal" of sub 5:30?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Ftp 180 [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
So your goal is 5hrs and then "soft goal" of sub 5:30?


Originally yup 😅

My thought process was (roughly as I'm in supermarket)

Swim 30mins
transition 6mins
Cycle 2 hours 45mins
Transition 4 mins
Run 1 HR 45

Giving me roughly 5 hour and 10 mins.

This seemed all do able. This meant doing
90km by itself in 2.5hr
21km in 1hr 35

Tbh swim.... I don't swim but I am happy with my efficiency to crack out 35mins without training and 26mins with training

Now I'm looking at 120w... If that's all I can do in December. Then I'm looking at

Swim 35 mins
Transition 6min
Cycle 3:45
Transiton 2 4mins
Run 2 hours

So that's 6:30 I guess

I mean that's an hour faster than last year
Last edited by: Bonmaklad: Oct 29, 19 13:04
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Re: Ftp 180 [Bonmaklad] [ In reply to ]
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OK I blended my watch heart rate and strava from the zwift session last night.

Zwift had me warm up. Then do some 340watt 45 seconds at a time and then finish on 5mins at 95% ftp

I ended up finishing holding 200w and above for 5mins. So I was quite proud of myself. As for the heart rate. Max 180

Check out my activity on Strava: https://strava.app.link/IYXnjSWQb1
Last edited by: Bonmaklad: Oct 29, 19 14:13
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Re: Ftp 180 [Bonmaklad] [ In reply to ]
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Best damn advice i heard ever! I copied n pasted into my notes! Thanks!
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Re: Ftp 180 [Bonmaklad] [ In reply to ]
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And a running heart rate at what I think is easy pace

Realistically this is zone 3 and 4

Check out my activity on Strava: https://strava.app.link/cugb3Qj9b1
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Re: Ftp 180 [Bonmaklad] [ In reply to ]
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Bonmaklad wrote:

It seems like in taupo, top 50% are below 6 hours

That's why I presumed it's like a 2 hour half marathon

I don't think you can compare running and triathlons in terms of finisher % and time. From my very anecdotal research of my local events, triathlons have less BOPers than running races. And by BOPer's, I mean people going into the race with the intention of walking the whole thing because they didn't train. You just don't see that many people that didn't do the work for 70.3's.

Also, there's a lot of triathletes who are gifted in one or two of the disciplines and terrible at the third. If you're a good runner and terrible swimmer, a 1:30 might be easy, but sub 5 might be a real challenge because you are swimming 45 min. And inversely, if you're a terrible runner, but a strong swimmer and cyclist, you could go sub 5, but would really struggle with 1:30.

You can't translate one sport events to a triathlon without context of an individuals strengths and weaknesses. The two events are completely different in my view.
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