New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question)

Oct 19, 19 3:33

Post #1 of 19 (3426 views)

Situation
I've seen some good fit advice here, so I'm looking to see if there's some useful input on some cockpits I'm considering. Currently I'm using a PD 100mm stem, 3T Vola LTD bar, with TriRig extensions undermounted and PD Race cups in the forward position. There are no headset spacers so this is as long and low as this setup will go, which is very low (12mm stack stem and 20mm stack bar).

I feel pretty comfortable in this position. Sitting up on steep hills and through aid stations is enough to stay in aero the rest of the ride. My only difficulty is with holding a shrug position for 5 hours. Not sure if that just needs conditioning or if it's the body position. On bumpy roads my elbows slide forward in the pads, and then I have to slide them back to reposition.

Questions
General advice would be good, but I'm largely curious about some cockpit options I'm considering. I would like to keep the PD stem/bottle, but would like to get the new D2Z extensions which contact the whole forearm for comfort, aero, and style points.Those won't work with an under-mount, so I'm considering these three aerobars, in no particular order. Which would be best for my position (for you fit experts)? And which would be the fastest bar (for you aero experts)?

Option 1: Alpha Classic with bars top mounted at minimum stack
- Fit: This would increase stack by ~10mm and increase max reach by ~10mm
- Aero: Non-UCI, slim profile. Cables would be nicely routed (rear exit) but the extensions aren't in line with the base bar. Is that a slower design due to frontal area or faster due to the gap between the pad and base bar?

Option 2: Vision/Willier Twin Foil OEM Bar (basically the old TFA but with standard bar clamp and wider extension position)
- Fit: Same as current setup
- Aero: Looks UCI legal. Brake cables exit the bottom of the bar, unfortunately. Extensions in line with the base bar. Wider extension position may be good for getting the D2Z set directly under the center of my forearms.
- Other: Would require creativity with D2Z extensions using a collet/clamp, but it should be doable.

Option 3: Felt Bayonet
- Fit: Same as current setup
- Aero: UCI version still looks fast and is easy to find. Cables sit the rear, which is nice.
- Other: Can't find the slim 4.2:1 non-UCI carbon version, but standard aluminum versions are available.

Current fit

Alpha Classic

Willier/Vision Bar

Felt Devox 4.2:1

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 19 3:46

Post #2 of 19 (3411 views)

You need more reach and some tilt... so Alpha.

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Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 19 5:45

Post #3 of 19 (3365 views)

Why tilt? D2Z can be ordered with a tilt kit so I can still use any one of these bars to keep the PD system.

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 19 6:22

Post #4 of 19 (3349 views)

The Bayonet 2 bars are really fast bars (42cm more so than the 39cm) and would likely achieve what you currently want expect reach adjustment is really limited and tilt is not natively built in. I also agree with Eric in that what you might need is more reach and or hand tilt. I have found that for me, and most I talk to, that the right combination of hand tilt and reach make shrugging a lot more natural. But, there is no free lunch you have to work it and work it all the time. Because, even when it becomes second nature it still takes work.

I like where your thought process is with the vision and felt bars. And while extensions emanating from the bar itself is a fast design, it has lots its limitations and or flaws that slow them down when looking for the right fit. Take tilt for example, as you angle those cups you start to leave those extensions just out in the wind; whereas, if the extensions tilt with the pads you can chose a design that hugs your forearms and doesn't negatively impact you as you get more comfortable (same goes for undermount designs).

IMO the Alpha Classic needs and update and be brought back for those with integrated stems or folks that need more/different options than what the Alpha and one provide. But, I think Nick feels the One and alpha is hitting all those markers and we won't see a "new" classic. So, again I think I agree with Eric in regards to which bar you should chose out of the three you present.

BigBoyND wrote:

Questions
General advice would be good, but I'm largely curious about some cockpit options I'm considering. I would like to keep the PD stem/bottle, but would like to get the new D2Z extensions which contact the whole forearm for comfort, aero, and style points.Those won't work with an under-mount, so I'm considering these three aerobars, in no particular order. Which would be best for my position (for you fit experts)? And which would be the fastest bar (for you aero experts)?

Option 1: Alpha Classic with bars top mounted at minimum stack
- Fit: This would increase stack by ~10mm and increase max reach by ~10mm
- Aero: Non-UCI, slim profile. Cables would be nicely routed (rear exit) but the extensions aren't in line with the base bar. Is that a slower design due to frontal area or faster due to the gap between the pad and base bar?

Option 2: Vision/Willier Twin Foil OEM Bar (basically the old TFA but with standard bar clamp and wider extension position)
- Fit: Same as current setup
- Aero: Looks UCI legal. Brake cables exit the bottom of the bar, unfortunately. Extensions in line with the base bar. Wider extension position may be good for getting the D2Z set directly under the center of my forearms.
- Other: Would require creativity with D2Z extensions using a collet/clamp, but it should be doable.

Option 3: Felt Bayonet
- Fit: Same as current setup
- Aero: UCI version still looks fast and is easy to find. Cables sit the rear, which is nice.
- Other: Can't find the slim 4.2:1 non-UCI carbon version, but standard aluminum versions are available.

Last edited by: LAI: Oct 19, 19 6:25

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 19 6:47

Post #5 of 19 (3318 views)

I’ve found that tilting up a little bit so my hands are higher than my elbows makes it easier for me to get into and holding a shrug

Matt

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 19 9:58

Post #6 of 19 (3258 views)

Option #4 Felt Bayonet 3 Devox. They're very inexpensive, but rare (not sure why on the $$). Also, probably the most adjustable bar out there.

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [ericMPro] [LAI] [Chemist] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 19 15:14

Post #7 of 19 (3188 views)

Chemist wrote:

I’ve found that tilting up a little bit so my hands are higher than my elbows makes it easier for me to get into and holding a shrug

This is good to know. Do you know what tilt angle that is?

ericMPro wrote:

You need more reach and some tilt... so Alpha.

Thanks Eric. Is the tilt for comfort or do you find it faster, too? How much tilt do you recommend as a starting point? D2Z offers 10, 15, and 20 deg shims and low/high rise extensions which add another15/25 deg.

LAI wrote:

[..] as you angle those cups you start to leave those extensions just out in the wind; whereas, if the extensions tilt with the pads you can chose a design that hugs your forearms and doesn't negatively impact you as you get more comfortable (same goes for undermount designs).

IMO the Alpha Classic needs and update and be brought back for those with integrated stems or folks that need more/different options than what the Alpha and one provide. But, I think Nick feels the One and alpha is hitting all those markers and we won't see a "new" classic. So, again I think I agree with Eric in regards to which bar you should chose out of the three you present.

Good point on leaving them in the wind. with pad in max-reach and with the D2Z high-rise version, maybe there wouldn't be a gap up to a reasonable cup angle.

I agree on the Alpha Classic update point. The One has a lot of adjustability and makes adjusting easy which is great for tunnel and fit work, but once a position is set, I don't mind messing with spacers and a separate stem adds reach and stack adjustability. My current position has about 35mm pad stack and 130mm reach to pad-center, while the One's minimum stack is 60mm and max reach is 120mm.

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 3:00

Post #8 of 19 (3126 views)

One thing to consider is that gaining tilt with wedges will add stack. Whereas most built in tilt systems lose stack as they tilt.

I'd suggest buying a cheap set of easily adjustable bars and experimenting. Don't order something high end hoping it will be better.
Work out your reach and tilt angle, then choose the best match.

If you want comfort from extra length look at the pad not the extension - syncergonomics make a 120mm pad (though it's a bit flimsy IMO), or wait for the tririg one.

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 13:57

Post #9 of 19 (3032 views)

Not much to add except I recomment that you DON'T go with the Vision/Willier bar. I briefly had a set of those and (as you pointed out) the extension collet system is unique and would not only be a pain in the ass to swap out, but would also render your $$$ D2Z extensions worthless should you ever switch basebars. Aside from that, the positioning of the extensions is also very limited.

The new-ish Vision Metron TFA looks like a good option.

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 14:07

Post #10 of 19 (3024 views)

Is there a reason you wear your race belt/bib on the bike?

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [TJP_SBR] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 15:43

Post #11 of 19 (3006 views)

TJP_SBR wrote:

Is there a reason you wear your race belt/bib on the bike?

European races require it, unfortunately. Not sure why

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [beston] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 15:48

Post #12 of 19 (3004 views)

beston wrote:

Not much to add except I recomment that you DON'T go with the Vision/Willier bar. I briefly had a set of those and (as you pointed out) the extension collet system is unique and would not only be a pain in the ass to swap out, but would also render your $$$ D2Z extensions worthless should you ever switch basebars. Aside from that, the positioning of the extensions is also very limited.

The new-ish Vision Metron TFA looks like a good option.

Yeah, I've backed away from those. Bottom cable exits probably undo a lot of the aero benefits or having the extension in line with the basebar, and trimming/prepping the D2Z bars for a collet seems risky from a safety perspective (have to drill and cut a slot into the extensions so that they can compress).

The new bar looks nice but doesn't meet my low stack requirements. At min stack, it's 70mm and I'm around 35 or 40mm

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 15:56

Post #13 of 19 (2997 views)

cyclenutnz wrote:

One thing to consider is that gaining tilt with wedges will add stack. Whereas most built in tilt systems lose stack as they tilt.

I'd suggest buying a cheap set of easily adjustable bars and experimenting. Don't order something high end hoping it will be better.
Work out your reach and tilt angle, then choose the best match.

If you want comfort from extra length look at the pad not the extension - syncergonomics make a 120mm pad (though it's a bit flimsy IMO), or wait for the tririg one.

Yes, wedges may add a bit of stack, but since I have the pads in the forward position, wouldn't the same hold true for increasing tilt with a built in system which is higher to begin with? I think I will try the low stack D2Z extension which has a virtual 15deg angle, before trying any wedges. Luckily the bars I'm looking at are very cheap since they are used.

Thanks for the syncergonomics suggestion, I've never heard of them. I really like the PD Race cups so I don't think I need to make any changes there. The discomfort I find is mainly in my neck and shoulders after holding the shrug for a while. It did cross my mind to get the upcoming tririg cups with the D2Z bars, and then trimming the cups to the contour of the D2Z bars to make a DIY Speedbar.

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 16:12

Post #14 of 19 (2982 views)

I would tuck it in the front until warned by an official.

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]

Nov 11, 19 20:59

Post #15 of 19 (2758 views)

cyclenutnz wrote:

If you want comfort from extra length look at the pad not the extension - syncergonomics make a 120mm pad (though it's a bit flimsy IMO), or wait for the tririg one.

I ended up going with the D2Z low-rise extensions and Alpha Classic. The classic provides an extra 10mm reach and the D2Z extensions nicely mate with the front half of my forearm.

Since the PD Race cups use 15mm spacing with some slotting, I was able to use them on 25mm basebars but they won't work on the 20mm Alpha spacing. So I started looking at longer cups as you suggested.
- TriRig scoops are really long and since they're hollow, I dont know if it can do any trimming at the front so that the front doesn't hit my extensions, I'd need them sticking out 60-70mm behind my elbows, otherwise.
- Culprit can be trimmed but they are 120mm wide, with less curvature. I printed them out to scale and they look way too wide
- Revolver ProRok looks perfect except they dont have lateral adjustment and I need them at least 10mm out on each side.
- 51 speedshop is an option but the added length compared to PD race would all be behind my elbow, none in the front
- Sync looks as good as Revolver in terms of measurements, but it uses 15mm spacing like PD.

Has anyone filled holes with epoxy or other material and then re-drilled them? Both the race and Sync are fiber enforced nylon.

Last edited by: BigBoyND: Nov 11, 19 21:32

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

culpritbicycles

Nov 11, 19 23:00

Post #16 of 19 (2730 views)

Mine are a bit wide to fit all riders. since yes, we do design for ourselves sometimes. Smaller cups just dont really feel comfy for me as a bigger rider, 190 cm..

But, they are asymmetric. , so you will be able to get fairly close with the design. Ill go home to measure some other pads I have. But with 10 mm of foam you lose some of that width. so its really about 100 mm of width to cup your arms.

Once we get carbon samples next month ill post how they look narrow vrs with a smaller rider and bigger rider in the arm cups

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [culpritbicycles] [ In reply to ]

Nov 11, 19 23:42

Post #17 of 19 (2720 views)

culpritbicycles wrote:

Mine are a bit wide to fit all riders. since yes, we do design for ourselves sometimes. Smaller cups just dont really feel comfy for me as a bigger rider, 190 cm..

But, they are asymmetric. , so you will be able to get fairly close with the design. Ill go home to measure some other pads I have. But with 10 mm of foam you lose some of that width. so its really about 100 mm of width to cup your arms.

Once we get carbon samples next month ill post how they look narrow vrs with a smaller rider and bigger rider in the arm cups

Yeah, it's really personal preference. I'm 192cm and 88kg. The Profile Design Race cups are 90mm wide and wrap really high with 5mm pads, so they are truly 80mm internally. They felt really odd for a few rides but now I really like the way they hug my arms. It keeps me for moving around and spreads my weight out across a larger surface, making it just as comfortable as other comfort cups with 10mm pads.

I would likely go for 5mm pad material since I'm trying to keep stack to a minimum.

Your bolt pattern layout and trimmable front makes it perfect for what I'm trying to do and I could cut the wings if space is an issue, but the curvature doesn't look like it's enough. What is the radius of curvature? Looks like about 80mm. Maybe the scale/image is just playing tricks on my eyes because you also said the cup stack is 9.5mm (without pad) but when I blow the image up to scale, it looks more like 5mm.

Looking forward to the pictures next month.

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

culpritbicycles

Nov 12, 19 1:19

Post #18 of 19 (2699 views)

heres some 3 renders to help til then

https://ibb.co/qWffymr
https://ibb.co/Y3YFkRk
https://ibb.co/bsnh8px

cant for the life of me get images to work, can you help?

Re: New Cockpit Selection/Fit Advice (2 part question) [culpritbicycles] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 19 1:52

Post #19 of 19 (2692 views)

Not sure why it isn't working even if I add .png to the end. Maybe that file format isn't supported or something.

Thanks for the renders. Looks like the picture in your thread was just a bit rotated and reduced the appearance of stack.

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