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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [ask77nl] [ In reply to ]
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ask77nl wrote:
I'm a big Lionel fanboy, but I don't quite get this one.

How the hell could he have missed hydration with so many races under the belt!

May be there was something else, like he pushed too hard for the level of liquids/nutrition that he was planning to consume.

The opposite. LS said in this video this was his easiest bike. He said he avi'd 290W for the ride which was easier than prior efforts. So as a result, it sounds like he took in less fluids. It also sounds like he just didn't have a set nutrition plan because in the past it hasn't been an issue.

It's ridiculously clear the man needs to humble himself and get a fucking Coach!!! T.O. probably doesn't finish second without Julie Dibens and the team he's assembled around him. Lionel's team is Erin and and occasional correspondence with Jerry Rodriquez. So Lionel's real team is an echo chamber inside his head. And that's not good. If LS handed the reigns over to a coach full time and just worried about executing the work/nutrition/strength/recovery and following the guidance of a braintrust that his not his brain, he wouldn't have gotten injured and he could've been on the podium the last two years. Shame. Maybe it's a trust issue? Maybe a control issue?

Lionel's worst enemy is Lionel.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [ask77nl] [ In reply to ]
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ask77nl wrote:
I'm a big Lionel fanboy, but I don't quite get this one.

How the hell could he have missed hydration with so many races under the belt!

May be there was something else, like he pushed too hard for the level of liquids/nutrition that he was planning to consume.

Yeah seems odd. I don't want to jump on the bandwagon, I think most of us love the guy and want him to do well, but he's a pro and making elementary mistakes like that. No excuse really. It's not his first rodeo. There's BOP AGers that have got this stuff dialled months before the race.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, listening to him talk about running past the T2 aid station without getting water because his hands were full seemed more about wanting to stay with the other guys in his group. 20/20 hindsight, it was probably better to give up 10sec. and grab a couple cups of water; but that's really hard to do in the heat of battle.

He seems really good at solving the individual problems he identifies (run form, swim, etc.), but triathlon has so many issues/dimensions that focus can lead to a bit of whack-a-mole if you are not careful.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
ask77nl wrote:
I'm a big Lionel fanboy, but I don't quite get this one.

How the hell could he have missed hydration with so many races under the belt!

May be there was something else, like he pushed too hard for the level of liquids/nutrition that he was planning to consume.

Yeah seems odd. I don't want to jump on the bandwagon, I think most of us love the guy and want him to do well, but he's a pro and making elementary mistakes like that. No excuse really. It's not his first rodeo. There's BOP AGers that have got this stuff dialled months before the race.

I’m having trouble understanding if this was a real mistake (not dialing the nutrition) or an excuse for two things: a. A body that has been injured and wasn’t ready for the big dance; and b. An overall training plan that is not going to cut it compared to the other pro’s

I think beating on the dead horse of whether he needs a coach is besides the point here. We all know he does. The questions are whether he has the talent of character as not to sandbag a relationship with a coach, and whether any coach would at this point spend time with him (I think some would take a flyer on Lionel but others with a very established business would probably see Lionel as a headache).

As someone said a 2:50 does not cut it for the win in Kona anymore, he’s made great gains on his swim and his bike has always been very strong, but I doubt that he can get to that sub 2:45ish that can win it considering the names that will be in the dance in the coming years (AB, Gomez, maybe Murray). It’s becoming really hard for me to see a path for Lionel to a win in Kona, coach or no coach.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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I think he did ok considering he only had two real races this year. IMMT and Augusta 70.3. I’m impressed he didn’t quit, pushed through and finished it. I think he is going to have a good year in 2020. I just hope he will stay injury free. He’s such a cool dude.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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He's never going to be relevant in Kona again unless he begs DTD for forgiveness or finds the same relationship with someone else. Lionel is 31, his personality is set and that personality is very very difficult to help. Davis did it and got him 2nd in Kona, that says a lot about that guy.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [s13tx] [ In reply to ]
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s13tx wrote:
I think he did ok considering he only had two real races this year. IMMT and Augusta 70.3. I’m impressed he didn’t quit, pushed through and finished it. I think he is going to have a good year in 2020. I just hope he will stay injury free. He’s such a cool dude.

Up to T2 he did more than ok... did very well! I think also he will have a good 2020 too, but at this point nothing that I see in his performance combined with the trends that we’re seeing in Kona lead me to believe that he has a shot at it. What we saw on Saturday as Sutton has been saying for a very long time is the evolution of Kona to favor athletes with no weaknesses on the disciplines. Frodo and Anne are an example of it. Lionel has limiters in his swim and his run is great up to a half marathon compared to other pro’s, that’s why, objectively, I don’t see a path for him to the crown.

Agree he’s a super cool dude with good content and good for the sport.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [peace242000] [ In reply to ]
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peace242000 wrote:
He's never going to be relevant in Kona again unless he begs DTD for forgiveness or finds the same relationship with someone else. Lionel is 31, his personality is set and that personality is very very difficult to help. Davis did it and got him 2nd in Kona, that says a lot about that guy.

i don't find that to be the case at all that's he's very difficult to help. he's a sponge for help. i've personally seen the input he takes, eagerly, when it comes to equipment and position (i don't have any basis for the help he may get regarding coaching, nutrition, and the like). he just chooses when and where he wants the help. if chooses to go for periods of time without a coach, then he's joined the same club of which i'm a member. maybe it's wise to be self-coached. maybe it's not. but it's just not correct to say he's difficult to help, and i know that both by personal observation, and i'm quite close to most of his sponsors and i haven't found this to be the case with the guidance provided by them. he also is either a self-taught swim savant or he absolutely got help in the swim, and followed it.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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here's the thing, doing well up to t2 is irrelevant, there are a LOT (think hundreds) of guys who can be in a position that impresses at t2 if they over swim and over ride...
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [peace242000] [ In reply to ]
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Agree 100%. Since my thought that his first place will not happen.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [s13tx] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree. He announced he will be racing 70.3 Los Cabos, 70.3 Indian Wells and then 70.3 Pucon in January 2020, so really exciting to see his performance in these next 3 races over the next 3 months. He mentioned he will take a break after that, but definitely looking forward to his next few races, from the video my feeling is he is quite keen to get back on the racecourse.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe he should try a camelback ! Pink

"There may be men that can beat me, but they are going to have to bleed to do it." Steve Prefontane
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [Alfredo] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, kinda surprised he’s not doing Arizona full to go ahead and lock up Kona slot for next year. It’ll be interesting to see what full he tries to qualify at next year.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [JackStraw13] [ In reply to ]
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Arizona is a Women’s pro only race this year

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [Alfredo] [ In reply to ]
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I really like the guy, its transparency, his approach.

I guess he will really perform very well on these 70.3 because :
1) it is a big engine. May be not as big as Frodeno/Brownlee, but not far, similar to Wurf and other top players.
2) his training with a lot of time around FTP power (seems to me) is probably best suited to 70.3 than full IM (some intuition...)
3) much less chances to fuck up the nutrition/hydration on a 70.3

With good training, no injury, good taper, on a good day, good food/hydration, good pacing, I'm sure he can do a Kona podium again, or win with some luck.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [powerbarjunkie] [ In reply to ]
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Lol, pinkish.

I mean obviously a camelbak is a silly aero-wise way to solve the dehydration issue, but he did run a 2:54 that year.

If he runs 2:54 again this year, he takes 5th.

At a minimum, he should be a lot more deliberate with carrying hydration on his rig.

He’s got riding buddies now that he’s making second pack... so KJ/ energy expenditure wise, riding the train+ the draft effect of the group would make up for the aero cost of having an extra bottle or two onboard.

Everything he describes suggests he f’d his hydration strategy. so carry more to start and don’t miss the aid stations.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [JackStraw13] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Jack. I'm thinking he might pick IM Texas or IM St George as it comes back in 2020 as a full IM. The timing is good for both races and he has had good success in St. George(70.3), so I could see him coming back to race the full.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. From the recent interviews I saw, Lionel mentioned how he missed racing and wants to race more often(70.3), these 3 upcoming races if they go as Augusta 70.3 went for him recently will give a good boost to the confidence and the speed before taking a break after Pucon 70.3 in January 2020. Excited to see how they go! Cheers.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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Karl wrote:
Arizona is a Women’s pro only race this year

Gotcha. Then I guess Florida would have been the option.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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How much is the coach vs no-coach decision dictated by economics for these pro triathletes? Lionel might have more sponsorships than most, and the ability to monetize the YouTube videos, etc., but would he be out of pocket to hire a coach? Or would a coach work pro bono with him due to the stardust that would sprinkle off him? Given the paltry revenue streams most of these guys have, where is the money for coaching coming from?
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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I doubt a coach would provide their services FOC.

For a pro, coaching is an investment/business expense. You spend X on a coach so you can earn X+N in additional prize money.

I'm not sure about North America, but where I am coaching expenses would be tax deductible for a pro.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
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His post race videos are always the same. Made up excuses. The fact is there were 21 better triathletes than him on Saturday, I wish he'd sometimes just own it rather than make up excuses.

I hope no one seriously believes that he was dehydrated to the point of vision impairment, that can't be true. Our thirst mechanism combined with the sheer volume of aid stations at Kona means you would have to actively try to get dehydrated for this to happen, I don't buy it at all. I raced on saturday as well and hydration is absolutely a critical part of performing well in Kona but on the bike there are aid stations 7 miles apart and each station has about 10 opportunities to grab a water bottle, then on the run they are a mile apart with as much cold water/ice/gatorade/cola as you can possibly handle.

This is in part a backdoor pat on the back to the volunteers and organisation at kona, they really go the extra 10 miles to ensure every athlete has what they need to perform in that climate. The logistics behind just the aid station element of the race must be huge.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [Dan The Man] [ In reply to ]
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Dan The Man wrote:
His post race videos are always the same. Made up excuses. The fact is there were 21 better triathletes than him on Saturday, I wish he'd sometimes just own it rather than make up excuses.

I'm a huge fan of Lionel, but I think the same. He sounded like making excuses. It's ok because that's human nature and I would do the same. Maybe that's why I like this guy. I just hope he has better year in 2020 and I believe he will. He's doing like three 70.3 races soon and I bet he will win or podium for sure in all three.
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [s13tx] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see Lionel as making excuses. I think that he goes through the processing of a race like many of us do, but he does it in front of a camera... "What was I capable of? Why didn't things pan out according to my expectations? What do I need to do differently between now and the next race, or in the next race."

We all do that, just not in front of all of Youtube world. HOWEVER, Lionel does have a tendency to take this self-examination and go to various extremes in one direction or the other in terms of training, diet, etc.

Ray
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Re: Lionel Sanders Post Kona YouTube vide commentary... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Ice Cold Take
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