a lot of them are probably doing it for fit reasons, a lot of them are probably doing it for trendy reasons, a lot of them are probably doing it because they actually tested.

a lot of assumptions in your post, which is normal, but it's important to remember that for everyone that when it comes to aero, N = [pretty much] 1

My post was a question, do you have the answer?
My assumption was both Sebi and Jan have tested at yaw. I KNOW Sebi has, but don’t know about Jan.
I didn’t assume the other pros haven’t, I’m asking if they have.

Dude, chill.

not sure what to tell you. nobody on ST will have THE ANSWER.

the response i provided likely encompasses all correct answers.

THE ANSWER = 42

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Well....shit.

Maybe he'll chime in here, but I believe Jim Manton @ ERO has noted multiple times that almost everyone he has tested is faster in a more mantis like position with higher hands. If that is on the track or outdoors, I can't say. I just know he is a fan of higher hands for a lot of folks.

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"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne

That's at low yaw.

I remember watching an interview last week of Jan (Can't remember where) and remember him saying that despite everyone moving towards the preying mantis position he valued the comfort of his current position over the marginal gains.

It's not that it is necessarily bad at yaw, but I've seen a lot of time where it is slower than a more "traditional" position "at yaw". We test both and let the athlete decide if the low yaw savings outweighs the bit of loss on yaw. Most pros are pushing close to 27-28mph for a 70.3 ride. They're not going to see much outside of 5 degrees there. A typical AG'er is going to see higher angles just because of riding slower speed. Kona is a special case because of the crosswinds

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

I think the yaw angle seen depends much more on the course than the rider's speed. I did a 40K @ 29MPH and never saw less than 10 degrees for the entire ride. (If you believe BBS, which some people don't). And the wind wasn't very strong. But even playing with the little vector calculators out there, rider speed doesn't have the outsized effect that some suggest. As hard as it is to ride 30MPH, it's just *not* that fast. :)

E.g. if Rohan Dennis is hauling at 34MPH, and there's a very light breeze of 6MPH coming at 90 degrees, he's going to see about a 10-degree angle. Nature doesn't care about what we think is fast.

Now that riding at a direct cross for long periods of time might be relatively rare. But when it happens it can matter.

Crosswinds are generally faster due to a bit of "sail" effect. I'm just looking at what a "normal" distribution is based on FLO and Mavic's on the road collected data. 6mph at ground level would be a pretty stiff wind. A direct crosswind, at least based on the data that's been collected is pretty rare indeed.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Any single direction is rare, and the subset of courses they sampled is pretty small. My only point is there's a case that optimizing for the conditions you're actually going to see in the races that matter for you might give some marginal advantage to optimizing to a generic histogram.

Particularly since the drag affects at high yaw can be pretty dramatic.

Edit: Since we're using Kona as an example, a study done there shows an 8-9 mile segment around 20 degrees, even while going about 25MPH. And about 70% of the ride over 4 degrees. And about 30% over 10 degrees. I'd say that yaw absolutely freaking matters if you're racing Kona (if you accept this data collection).

Actually measured outside or inferred from wind tunnel data? I've never experienced it...

I think Sebi is a pretty good litmus test. High hands probably doesn’t work *for him*. You can be assured he’s tried it at least once or twice in testing. Heavens knows he tests a lot.

Personally high hands are very fast for me at 0, about equal at 10, but the margin for error in setup is incredibly narrow otherwise the position falls apart.

Yes I agree.
I also think the fastest cyclists at Kona generally ride arms flat or just a touch up to relax the shoulders. Plenty of riders riding higher hands and I’m seriously questioning if they have tested this as Kona level yaws. Most wind tunnels don’t bother with that high a yaw and velodrome testing certainly doesn’t.

What this means is Kona is a different beast compared to pretty much every other race. If they want to perform here they have to prepare for the actual race, high yaws etc. Sebi, Jan and a few others have consistently done this. Lionel as an example has not. He’s followed trends to try and copy others but is missing what makes them so good.

Take Ali for example. He did some testing but I was told by someone involved that he only tested up to 15 deg. Which is why he has his hands higher.

I've seen an obvious effect in the data, yes.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

I think we've all acknowledged that Kona is a special case.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Even if sponsors are paying for testing, and we've had sponsors pay for athletes to be tested, it's still going to be $10+.....per minute. I don't care who you are or what you've won, no one is going to test some Olympic medalist for free or for the publicity.

There is a limit to how much sponsors are willing to fork over for incidental expenses such as aero testing.

Very few companies understand & get aero testing. It's not what they see increasing brand recognition or selling products.

If you're Adidas would you prefer to spend $1500 on wind tunnel testing for Alistar or $1500 for a social media influencer. One of those $1500 is going to sell waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more product & generate way more eyeballs on your logo/increase brand recognition. The overall Win at the Ironman World Championships is going to get you a .x% bump in eyeballs and a miniscule increase in brand recognition.

A social media influencer is going to do way more for you than the overall win in Hawaii. One is going to sell a few bucks more for you, not enough to cover your expenses if you tunnel test, probably. But put a halfway right influencer in some new style/color Adidas Ultra Boost and they'll fly off the shelves. (those shoes are plush btw)

just the way it is. He probably ran out of $ & time when he tested. What can you do? \_O_/

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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