Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Running efficiency
Quote | Reply
Kona was great to watch. I've been studying some running styles like Kipchoge, Bekele, Timothy Torotich, Stephen Kiprop for example, great East African runners and one thing I noticed is how firstly their runner styles are so relaxed and efficient compared to an Elite Ironman, secondly how high the leg back lift is.

Compare the above to a say an Elite man or women in Kona and their leg back lifts are shockingly low mostly, ok a swim and a bike has already been completed the weather conditions are hot, tiredness creeps in. I've seen Timothy Torotich from Uganda run live and he is a machine! makes running look so easy and so dam fast!

Why are the leg lifts including myself so low, losing a heck of a lot of speed. Is it because our hamstrings are tighter? Our quad muscles are shorter from thousands of miles on the bike? Or is it something else, because if Timothy Torotich was an ok swimmer and bike rider, his marathon would be like a 2:20 or less I'm sure of that, well he's a 59 min man in the half marathon. My main Q here is how can IM become faster runners, we must be doing something wrong? Or are elites runners just training for a different sport entirely? 2:45 is marathon in an Ironman is amazingly good IMO but East Africans would consider this time very slow.

I sat with my friend who is a runner and he was laughing when the IM commentators were saying how great this guys running style and efficiency was! I thought so as well, he was laughing and saying honestly these guys no nothing about running, there styles are so inefficient he said.....then I started studying myself........
Last edited by: mortirolo: Oct 13, 19 5:31
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [mortirolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It’s because they have to bike first!
Tired muscles, low leg lift.
How to run faster? Take it much much easier on the bike, making the overall time much slower.
This is triathlon, not swimming, cycling and running.
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
But do they train with a low leg lift? More practice and maybe they can achieve greater results even when tired.
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [mortirolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mortirolo wrote:
Kona was great to watch. I've been studying some running styles like Kipchoge, Bekele, Timothy Torotich, Stephen Kiprop for example, great East African runners and one thing I noticed is how firstly their runner styles are so relaxed and efficient compared to an Elite Ironman, secondly how high the leg back lift is.

Compare the above to a say an Elite man or women in Kona and their leg back lifts are shockingly low mostly, ok a swim and a bike has already been completed the weather conditions are hot, tiredness creeps in. I've seen Timothy Torotich from Uganda run live and he is a machine! makes running look so easy and so dam fast!

Why are the leg lifts including myself so low, losing a heck of a lot of speed. Is it because our hamstrings are tighter? Our quad muscles are shorter from thousands of miles on the bike? Or is it something else, because if Timothy Torotich was an ok swimmer and bike rider, his marathon would be like a 2:20 or less I'm sure of that, well he's a 59 min man in the half marathon. My main Q here is how can IM become faster runners, we must be doing something wrong? Or are elites runners just training for a different sport entirely? 2:45 is marathon in an Ironman is amazingly good IMO but East Africans would consider this time very slow.

I sat with my friend who is a runner and he was laughing when the IM commentators were saying how great this guys running style and efficiency was! I thought so as well, he was laughing and saying honestly these guys no nothing about running, there styles are so inefficient he said.....then I started studying myself........

Could it be high leg lift is not needed to go the speed of an elite triathlete runs at?

How about ITU triathletes or elite IM triathletes?

How high is their leg lift when running the same speed as elite marathoners?
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [mortirolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm sure you can say the same for all three sports. There is a reason why triathletes use a given technique for tri, like written earlier. They swim like triathletes, bike like triathletes, and run like triathletes. No triathletes is even close to the top elite level in any sport, but they're good at doing all three consecutively.

Louis :-)
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Their back lift is level with there glutes or even higher sometimes, like Kenenisa Bekele
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [louisn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
very true
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [mortirolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There is a great deal to dissect here but let’s just set the basics:

1. Most of the Africans have a track background
2. If you measure their cadence they are maxed out at 90 so the only way for them to increase pace is to increase their stride length. Watch Kipchoge in slow motion his stride length is immense.
3. Elite Marathon runners are very slight in muscle and have incredibly resilient tendons. Listen to The Sport Science Podcast with Ross Tucker specifically the one about the Ineos challenge. Ross explains the tendon part really well.
4. All of this causes one thing More time in the air and less time on the ground.

Triathletes
1. Heavy muscle build
2. That bike ride has a great deal to do with run form.
3. There is not many with a heavy track and field background.
4. Look at the two Olympic Gold Medalists in action yesterday. Jan and Brownlee look somewhat like oversized elite marathoners and their is nothing but pure joy watching Annie Haug run.

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [mortirolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The simplest answer is their running speed. No one is gonna have a high leg kick when they are running 6 min miles. High leg kicks are a result of speed and push off, which isn't really needed at the relatively slow paces the run in IM. Look at ITU and you will se higher leg kicks when they are running 5 min miles, case in point

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Right on. Pro marathon runners race at speeds about 20% faster than the fastest Ironman marathons. Their form is mostly from their speed, not the other way around.

Here's Mo Farah (known for his form) and Galen Rupp running easy on treadmills, they look about the same as the rest of us running easy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaOQpCZgSME
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [mortirolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mortirolo wrote:
I sat with my friend who is a runner and he was laughing when the IM commentators were saying how great this guys running style and efficiency was! I thought so as well, he was laughing and saying honestly these guys no nothing about running, there styles are so inefficient he said.....then I started studying myself........

You friend is clueless because he is comparing apples to oranges. The IM commentators are talking about a running style after a hard bike. That's in a different universe than someone who just runs. Its the same as comparing an Olympic swimmer who trains and races in a pool and an open water swimmer. Totally different. Pure runners and pure cyclist body make up is different than a triathlete. Triathletes have more muscle mass because of the swim and bike.

Get your friend on a bike for 112 miles and then see how "efficient" he runs.
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wouldn't say he's clueless! he is a top club runner a 2:30 marathon and a 4:15 miler at 45 years! But what I would say is as you said he has no idea like myself and you how hard it is to run a marathon after a 4km swim and a 180km+ bike ride, especially in he heat.

I think what he is trying to say maybe if an elite IM gets a running coach as well as an endurance/Tri coach things could change his/her running times could be lowered. You can make a lot of time up on the run as we know, it's won or lost on the run IMO.

I also think that triathletes have the wrong body shape, great runners have long calfs, long hamstrings, very lean muscle all over whatever height. Most IM including myself will have larger calfs and quads, perhaps a bigger upper body even though elites don't weigh a lot, just look at Kenenisa Bekele and O'Donnell for example and compare, completely different body structures. Playing 3 sports your body/muscles adapts to these exercises accordingly. I personally think IM elites can run faster if they can get right coaching. I'm not a coach but that's my opinion.
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [mortirolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
some of it is morphology. you run into this as a bike fitter. the big differences in morphology. long legs versus long torso.

as was stated, another difference is speed. but mostly i think it's the combo of speed and height. if you put kenyans next to elite triathletes the triathletes would outweigh them by 30lb, but also triathletes are taller. if you look at gebrsellassie run, huuuuge strides. because he's so short. you make someone 5'8" or 5'9" run 4:30 miles it's just going to look different than a 6'1" guy running 6:15 miles.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [mortirolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The reality is that changing running form is extremely hard to do - because our brains/spine/cerebellum is HARD WIRED to find the optimal stride for one's body and build and fitness.

Name a top pro or college runner who changed their form substantially or addressed a weird form issue. I'm waiting.

There is an entire cottage industry made up of 'run coaches' who claim they can change your form and give you a big speed boost. Guess what? If you train HARD and regularly, with a good plan, your body will pick the optimal stride and form for you for distance running. We are literally wired to do this as humans, genetically.

Note that this hard-wiring is NOT present for swimming or skiiing, or other endurance activities. Which is why form training is so important in those sports. But for running, you risk screwing up your best gait (even if it is ugly) by forcing a different form upon it. There are quite a few collegiate D1 distance runners with weird gait habits - legs that swing out, armswing too high or low or little, low strides, high strides, etc. But you mess with that at great risk.

Also note that this differs a bit for short-distance run sprinting like the 100, where you do need to artificially train your legs and nerves to fire fast and get those knees up.
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Any additional info on your points?

I was JUST at the physio last night. She's a very talented ex-collegiate runner and she made some comments on my stride/gait. I've been dealing with hamstring issues on my right side for almost a year. She took one look and commented on how asymmetrical my stride is and how much vertical bounce I have running at my “easy” pace. The bounce smooths out at race pace (about 75 seconds faster than easy), but I’m still very asymmetrical. Specifically, I run on the outside of my right foot severely (i.e., it doesn’t roll in after contacting the ground), but my left foot strike is normal. She had me open up a little to the right and I felt like I was running like Lionel (ugly). Should I consciously try to balance out my stride or just go with my asymmetry?

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think you might mean Ethopians are on the smaller side, a lot of Kenyan's are tall runners like Timothy Cheruiyot 6 foot 1 or Asbel Kiprop at 6 foot 3 who are very fast!
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [mortirolo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mortirolo wrote:
I think you might mean Ethopians are on the smaller side, a lot of Kenyan's are tall runners like Timothy Cheruiyot 6 foot 1 or Asbel Kiprop at 6 foot 3 who are very fast!

a lot of kenyans are taller. but i think the average pro triathlete has a few inches on the average elite kenyan. here's a letsrun thread from quite a few years back. noting the outliers, many of which are very fast, world leading, if the average height of a world class marathoner is 5'8", and that list is dominated by kenyans, then there you have it.

typically african elite runners are below average height. why are kenyans fast, related to morphology? this study, only 9 elite kenyans, but average height was 5'6 1/2".

maybe i'm wrong, but this is what i keep coming up with when i deploy the google.

i'm not saying that it's a problem being 6'0" tall, just, when i was outfitting the worlds triathletes in wetsuits, it was uncanny: the average was 6'1", and 160lb, and that keeps on demonstrating itself. if you look at a guy like jan, who's 6'4", he's not going to look as fast when he runs as a guy who's 5'10", even when they're running the same speed. their technique will not look the same. (in fact it won't be the same.) you slow that 6'1" down to 6:15 pace, the most efficient way to run that pace is going to look very different than a 5'10" kenyan or ethiopian running 4:30 pace.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Running efficiency [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Another thing to note, I read recently, is that the East Africans have much longer tendons than other humans from outside this part of the world especially in the foot/knee, these long tendons act as a spring, so the secret is not the muscle it's the tendon that acts as the spring after the muscle has contracted, this allows for much more time in the air, the more time you have in the air the faster you are, each foot impact is loss of time, the more impacts the more time you add I think. It's all interesting. But yes a lot of East Africans are smaller but there a lot of tall East Africans as well. Don't forget they live and train above 2,500m all the time as well!
Quote Reply