The only reason you would stay is if you could change his mind, you are saying you can't do that. So why stay? What is the advantage of staying? I am not talking about the career people, I am talking the political people that are the administration. Why does the SecDef not resign? Secretary of State? Their deputies?

They can all speak out. There is nothing that stops them.

Leaving is a powerful statement that could get others to act, maybe even trump would act when he sees how bad that has looked. Clearly just doing what he says has not helped, time to try something else.

Now, I'm no historian or sociology professor, but dollars to donuts this scenario is kind of how really bad things can happen. Like, really bad things. I hope those making these decisions to keep quiet are more versed in history and sociology than me.

Nothing to add other than I like to think the fact we don't hear about this happening more often is a testament to how appreciative people are of our services around the world.

Behind all the awful people in history, there is a long list of people that stood by them and knew what they were doing was wrong.

Service to country is a career choice for many. I will not fault them for doing their duty. Turning out the lights and locking the door on your way out is not an option. Why do you think we are hearing of reports of 200 still in country? Because Trump ordered it? Some folks are slow walking orders on a tightrope on your behalf. They have my gratitude. my 2cents in disagreement.

But that argument just shows that this is the trump administration, you just can't say somethings are done by trump and some by the administration when you admit that the people can sway him.

The fact is that this Syria mess is that fault of the trump administration. It is the fault of the people there that have had years to teach him what he needs to know.

Let's just say your logic confounds my simple mind. I place blame in it's entirety where the buck stops. Can I go workout now?

That is why I said trump administration, the buck stops with them. You can't just let the actions of others that facilitate trump get no blame. But saying trump administration puts his name first, commensurate with him being the head.

Not a continuance of our debate, but to update seems Russia is now to jointly patrol the +30KM safezone along with Turkey. In Trump's terms, definitely a win for Putin! Also while Trump may not value the lives of allied forces along the border, he is willing to value their oil. Well it is the Kurds now when it once was the Syrians oil. Why do I suspect monetary remuneration or a bit more blatant mercenary approach is behind swaying trump's thinking to keep our boys in Syria?

So the oil is safe just like Trump said. Safely in the hands of Putin.

I know we all (well not all) want to make Trump look the puppet to Putin the puppeteer. I think that is a stretch wrt the oil fields in the custody of the Kurds. I believe they were originally Syrian and not Kurdish, they then became ISIS controlled and then the Kurds took custody. The fields are not in the safe zone and would not be subject to Russian control in that we are now helping the Kurds with their security.

I may be wrong. It is so dynamic I don't know if anyone with all source intelligence is able to keep up with events on the ground much less the plans for moving forward. Putin is definitely in a better position and we are in a terribly weakened position. I have not heard how our russian combat coordination may or may not have changed. We were working real hard to deconflict so that hostilities or accidental engagements were prevented. Would hope the lines of communication have remained open.

MOSCOW, Oct 23 (Reuters) - The Kremlin said on Wednesday that the United States had betrayed and abandoned the Syrian Kurds and advised the Kurds to withdraw from the Syrian border as per a deal between Moscow and Ankara or be mauled by the Turkish army.
...
"The United States has been the Kurds' closest ally in recent years. (But) in the end, it abandoned the Kurds and, in essence, betrayed them," Peskov was cited as saying.
"Now they (the Americans) prefer to leave the Kurds at the border (with Turkey) and almost force them to fight the Turks."

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

So basically, we just handed the territory over to the Russians. So much winning.

Why did we even engage in a cold war when we could have just left Europe and all that trouble behind us? Think of all the money and lives we could have saved.

I can just imagine that speech if Trump had been president instead of Reagan...

those are some damning quotes and kind of like they are taunting Trump's stupid decision. I don't think my Kurdish acquaintances in Germany will probably respond to my emails anymore, and I don't blame them. If I am a Kurd the US is persona non grata.

 
Looks like Trump's sudden decision to exit northern Syria could have jeopardized the plans to take out Baghdadi.

Now, according to war monitor, Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, 500 US troops have crossed back over the border into Syria in recent days.

Syria and their civil war was--is--and forever will be a mess. Was it simpler under Obama's line in sand declaration, but then timid policy to stay the hell out while talking with factions there and come up with something to resolve? Or is it now simpler under Trump where he cedes control of peoples destiny and territory to others, declares we are out, done and dusted?

Ooops, there are things we still need to mop up? How about that oil? Is it the Kurd's oil or Syria's oil? How about those remnants of ISIS and their newly found plans to carry on with terror?

28? 50? 500? 1000's of troops? The numbers are a moving target always. Whether overpriced security guards for oil fields or elite raid forces on headline targets, missions, valid or not, will always be there. As much as Trump would like to lie to his base and say he has made good on his promise to bring boys back home, it ain't happening. Trip wire positioning and drawn lines just shift with the sand.

Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin met in Yalta to sort post war Europe. Erdogan and Putin met in Sochi to sort Syria. Our boy Trump was fine with that. But then he was't fine with that.

There's no such thing as a war being 7,000 miles away any more. That's just 10 hours flying time, and with modern communications and since 9/11 we are constantly on the front line. It's impractical to think we can ever go back to keeping all our troops at home. So we need to find the best strategic use for them, and those 500-1000 in N. Syria were doing a very effective job. Now 250,000 Kurds have been displaced from their homes, we've allowed a NATO ally to invade a foreign country (which helps Putin to justify his take-over of Crimea), allowed hundreds of ISIS prisoners to escape and we've ceded influence to Turkey and Russia.

And now we've sent 500 troops back in to try to mop up the mess a bit.

Hard to see history being kind to Trump on matters beyond domestic affairs. One could say that his chaos and unpredictability work well in war but maybe not so well in relations with other countries that fall short of hostile action. Diplomatic negotiations require nuance. Seems he failed to get in the line for nuance at birth.

This compound in Ain Issa had a US flag over it a few weeks ago, yesterday it had a Russian flag.

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Suffer Well.

How can you tell? Looks red, white, and blue to me.

So much #WINNING!

More good news (for Russia) in Syria.



Any doubt that Trump is Putin's bitch now?

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Suffer Well.

Russia wins and US loses. I understand this simplification and can on a very basic level agree with it. However,

Assad (a legitimate war criminal) stays in power and gains territory back. Turkey, a NATO ally, invades Syria and attacks their PKK terrorists. The leader of those terrorists (whom we call SDF) is invited to the White House as friend and ally. ISIS is defeated by said SDF terrorist/fighters, but now is positioned to comeback. Trump relents to Graham on troops and his new position is that it is now all about the oil. We control the oil, Turkey controls their border and Russia, playing both or all sides, has a new airfield.

Syria, as defined by the powers of 20th century, remains a joke. Our position and current strategy for Syria as defined by trump is simplified as protection and control of a few fields of oil within said country.

Trump can not and will not do complex. ISIS was simple and was a win. After ISIS was done we had no follow on plan. Our only tactic now is to violate international law and take Syrian oil.

My 02 cents: The catch with Trump and Russia-- puppet and puppeteer-- is that one could make a case that a better more lasting solution to Syria and ISIS could have been made without the Trump as Putin's bitch baggage.