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IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed
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Hi. I'm new here, but not entirely new to long triathlons. I've done one iron distance event -- the Vineman in 2014. I’m registered for IM St. George on 5/2/20, and I’ve two questions relating to swim and cycling clothing and one about the cycling route.

My clothing questions center on the challenge of staying warm during the swim and during the first hour or so of the ride. When I did Vineman, I wore a tri-suit under a 3mm/2mm tri-specific wetsuit and was fine. But the water in the Russian River was much, much warmer than the 60-64 degree temperatures I’m told to expect for IM St. George.

I should add that I’m a total wimp when it comes to cold water. I hate, HATE, hate getting into -- and then swimming in -- cold water. In the tropics, when everyone else is diving in board shorts, I’m the guy wearing a dive skin AND a 3/2 wetsuit. When they’re pulling on their 3/2 wetsuit, I’m pulling on a neoprene hood.

FIRST QUESTION: given my aversion to cold water, what you recommend that I wear for the swim for IM St. George and do you recommend the use of ear wax?

After the swim at the Vineman, I was really, really cold for the first 45 minutes of the ride in a dripping tri-suit. For IM St. George, I am thinking that I might take the time to pull on arm and leg warmers and toss them at an aid station once I get warm.

SECOND QUESTION: do you have any thoughts on the use of arm and leg warmers? Bear in mind that for the Vineman, I only finished in the top third -- and I'm likely to be even less competitive for IM St. George given that it's the NA championship. While I want to do my best, I'm willing to trade a bit of time to avoid a lot of misery.

FINAL QUESTION: I looked at the map for bike course for IM St. George, and there appears to be a bear of a hill starting around mile 70 -- with some 2000 feet of steady elevation gain for 12-15 miles! Given the scale, it’s hard to tell, but it looks like a 3-5% grade! For those of you who’ve done the race, is that section of the course as really as bad as it looks and what's the highest grade you have to transit? Seems pretty intimidating!

Thanks for your help,
Christopher from Oregon
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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1: water isn’t that bad. It sounds bad, and when you wade in it it’s cold, but wasn’t cold at all during the swim.

2. Nothing with “warmers” should be in the title of anything you wear.

3. Bike course is legit hard (though they’ve made it “easier” than previous versions (so I was told). Just enjoy the journey...and embrace the suck.
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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1/2 - I’ve the the half the last 4 years and have never found the water or first part of the bike needing anything other then a normal wetsuit and trisuit. However I’m not affected by cold as others as I’ve done lots of training in and around Lake Tahoe, which is much colder than other areas. Should be fine with just the wetsuit and arm/leg warmers if you find it a bit cold the days leading up to the race. Only time you would need anything more is if a storm came in on race weekend as in 2016, when the temp dropped and got rained on most of the day.

3 - I can really provide much about your question of the bike cause I’ve only done the half. Always turned right back towards town after Snow Canyon and never turned left as for this course. But in my opinion, Snow Canyon isn’t that bad. Its only 4 miles in length the first half of it is pretty gradual of 5% with the hardest of it the last mile where it gets steeper, I saw 10% in a few areas.

This is going to be my first full and I’m pretty excited about it. I think it looks like a great course and feel it is going to be a honest course. It is going to be hard just because of where that climbing does come, as mile 70 and on, but if you pace properly and on your nutrition, you’ll do good.
Last edited by: TriEnduro: Oct 5, 19 18:43
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Culley22] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. The water is not that bad. I prefer a full sleeve wetsuit and this is what I wore in 2017. The cold was not an issue for me. A decent wetsuit (full sleeve or farmer John) is all you will need.

Regarding the bike, I have only done the half which is a little different than the full course. But the 2,000+ foot climb is the same. On that climb, you may or may not go over that 75-80% of your FTP. Ideally in ironman races, you want to keep your bike at 70-75% of your FTP over the course of the 112 mile bike. Hills can allow for power spikes and the consensus is to drift as much as 80% of your FTP. You pay the price on the run if you let your FTP go much higher. You can also define these efforts in heart rate or your perceived rate of effort if you don't use power but I don't currently use those. I recommend doing as many Hill repeats as possible before race day to be ready.

Also, the run is no joke. Literally two loops of steady 1,000+ foot climbs with short descents.

Best of Luck!

James S Proctor
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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fancy doing a US full distance event ,wondered whats this one like from a logistic point of view and is the journey across the pond worth it ;-)
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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Can’t comment on St. George but have done a few cold weather races. Used ear plugs at Indian Wells in sub 60 water and believe it helped. Also, I don’t wear my tri top under my wetsuit. Dry off in T1 then put it on so it is not wet. On super cold/rainy days I have worn it, dried off, and then put a cycling jersey over the top (mainly because I am wearing arm warmers, vest, and if it warms up cycling jersey has bigger pockets). The best piece of kit in my opinion is a wind vest. Easy to get on and off, not too much of aero disadvantage, keeps chest warmer, keeps road spray off, breathable in back, light. Hope that helps.



I miss you "Sports Night"
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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I will disagree with most of the posters here on water temp. It will depend on the weather. My wife and I raced it in 2016 and the water was frigid. I do good in the cold and still found it frigid. My wife doesn't carry much insulation and once she turns the corner towards hypothermia she never recovers.

We’ve been to extra special weather days in Whistler, Santa Rosa, IMAZ, France and StG. The lesson learned is to pack the closet if there’s a chance of inclement weather. Then pack T1/T2 with the options because it can change during swim. Saw this at 2015 Whistler and 2016 StG. Cold already and then steady heavy rain.

If you have trouble in the cold don’t worry about advice from others that don’t get cold. Arm warmers, toe warmers, hot hands/feet packets, light hat, Gabba Jersey are all on the table for you. Some people just run hotter than others. Outside of 2015 Whistler the coldest tri we’ve done is in Provence. Sheet rain while climbing and descending passes. Finished the bike shaking cold and sat down in transition with no cover (all tents filled with dnf’rs) and heavy rain to take off some wet clothes and put wet running clothes back on. Yet there were racers there from the U.K. biking and running in short sleeve tri tops no problem. UCI Worlds Yorkshire definitely helps put this in perspective! Lol!
Last edited by: SummitAK: Oct 5, 19 18:56
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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Oh yeah, yes to the wax earplugs. I find they make a difference.
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [stivrunning] [ In reply to ]
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I think it’s going to be a great race. I’ve done the 70.3 several times and it’s been VERY well run and supported by the community every time.

The course is going to be hard. I’ve driven the old 140.6 course before they announced the current course, and I do think the current course will be easier.

If you’re flying into Vegas, you can get an airport shuttle to St. George any day. It’s an easy 2 hr ish drive if you’re renting. For hotels, I’d recommend booking now, and try to get one near the city center because it will be easy to get anything you need pre-race (including at least one bike shop a few blocks from T2/finish line. This is also where you register, and where athlete buses will depart to go to the swim on race day. The only “downfall” here is that for spectators it’s hard to get to the swim then back to town, as it’s about 10 miles and they’ll probably close done of the roads until all swimmers are out on course. They did for the 70.3 although it’s a different course. Just be ready for that.

To the OP, I wouldn’t worry they much about water temp, it’s not that bad once you get going and wetsuit is all you need. Every year I did the 70.3 (same weekend in May) it gets blazing hot, so you’ll likely be fine within a few minutes Of getting out of the water. That said, it can be cold pre-race so bring a warm hat and clothes while you wait to get going.

I’ll be there this time for the full, I’m super excited for it since it’s the only course this close to Las Vegas where I live.
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [stivrunning] [ In reply to ]
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When I lived in the UK, I raced StG twice (2010 and 2012) and found getting to it very easy as there is a nonstop flight to Vegas (a 90min drive from StG). It's a great race, with a beautiful course and with the slightly easier (less elevation gain) bike course, it should be a slightly shorter day out racing. The run is not easy, however, and I felt like it was a sadistic joke the 2 times I ran it.



"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Run course. Yes you are correct. This is without question the toughest run course I have done including Lake Placid which most regard as pretty tough. Assuming the full is simply 2x the 70.3 course it will be a classic.

If you are an athlete trying to get to kona and are not a front pack swimmer than this race is for you. The bike is tough and drafting won't be near as bad and the run is super tough. This is a bike/runnner course for sure.

Likely one of the fairest courses to race which we can't say about some Ironmans these days. Don't expect a PB !
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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Just wear a full suit and neoprene cap on the swim, you can throw your colored IM race cap over the neoprene cap. I guess if you're a super woose then u could wear something on your feet too? The water is really nice and clean!
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Canuck1] [ In reply to ]
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Canuck1 wrote:
Re: Run course. Yes you are correct. This is without question the toughest run course I have done including Lake Placid which most regard as pretty tough. Assuming the full is simply 2x the 70.3 course it will be a classic.

I believe they’ve changed up the run course from the historic 70.3 route above town. It goes west then south. Not sure what profile that way looks like, but my recollection of the terrain is this would be generally downhill out after diagonal making for a climb coming back to diagonal before heading downhill to the finish.
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [SummitAK] [ In reply to ]
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SummitAK wrote:
Canuck1 wrote:
Re: Run course. Yes you are correct. This is without question the toughest run course I have done including Lake Placid which most regard as pretty tough. Assuming the full is simply 2x the 70.3 course it will be a classic.


I believe they’ve changed up the run course from the historic 70.3 route above town. It goes west then south. Not sure what profile that way looks like, but my recollection of the terrain is this would be generally downhill out after diagonal making for a climb coming back to diagonal before heading downhill to the finish.
I thought they said they wouldn’t double it as that would be too much.
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Culley22] [ In reply to ]
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It’s not the same run course as the 70.3. The only part that is the same is heading up Diagonal.

It’s not flat at all so I’m sure it will be hard but I doubt it’s anywhere near as hard as if they had just doubled the 70.3. Ouch.
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like it could a one to do thanks for the info ,does not sound to bad logistically
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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1. "Hating" cold water implies a mental block. You can overcome this by getting in cold water, taking cold showers, etc. All obvious stuff. If you physically struggle in the cold (I had frostbite on my hands and feet from a training course I attended, for example) take some extra precautions as needed. I recall watching the GTN Celtman recap and the guy had a thermal layer under his wetsuit.

2. Comfort is your choice and totally dependent on the day.

3. I'd be more concerned about a fast descent on an overcrowded road with folks that might not handle a bike so well.

Good luck!
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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Not OP’s original question, but as others have pointed out the run course has been changed so it is not simply 2 loops of the 70.3 course. The new 140.6 run course is two loops with 770 feet of climbing on each 13.1 mile loop. This is in contrast to the 70.3 run course which has 1270 feet of climbing over 13.1 miles.

Regarding the question as to how to stay warm in the swim, I agree with SummitAK on the value of packing the closet (within reason). It sounds as though the water temperature is usually in the low 60’s although it can be as low as mid to high 50’s at that time of year. Consider wearing a neoprene swim cap under your race cap. Neoprene boots are legal when water temp is </= 65. Whatever you do, try to practice swimming in colder conditions and at the very least get in the water at Sand Hollow for the practice swim to test the conditions and your gear. Keeping yourself warm during the swim will go a long way in setting you for success for the rest of the race.
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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Swim - The best advice I didn’t take 20 minutes before the swim start of Ironman Lake Tahoe was go naked under my wetsuit dry off and put dry clothes on. So I suggest doing that or wearing a swim brief under your wetsuit take it off in transition and put on dry clothes.

Early Bike - Plan for terrible conditions hope for good conditions. If the wind is calm and there are no clouds that sun is very warm even in the morning. But plan for cool and windy with some rain and you’ll be fine.

The hills on the bike - plan on being tired heading up the canyon for a second time. If you are confident when fresh and ride a 39/27 you’ll want another option to go smaller. The absolute worst thing in that race is to look for an easier gear when you don’t have one.

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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I'm one of those that gets cold really easy. As a 5'9" 125 lb female, I just don't have much natural insulation to keep me warm. I also have Reynauds which makes for even more fun with the cold. Having said that, I have never been cold during the swim at St George (I've only done the half several times). Even in 2016, I was fine during the swim. It was riding in the cold rain that got me. In 2016 I ended up in an ambulance with hypothermia about halfway through the bike.

Lessons learned from 2016: I could care less what anyone says about being tough or it's a mental thing. I'm susceptible to the cold and always will be. So I dress much warmer than others and just lose the arm warmers etc as I go. Many people wear neoprene caps and booties at St George if the temperature allows. I've been told by many swimmers that earplugs help with the cold (I've never needed them). Cold water acclimatization does help and there's data to back it up. I did cold baths and showers in the month before St George 70.3 this year and I could definitely tell a difference (but the swim has never bothered me that much).

Everyone has commented on the bike already. The big hill is Snow Canyon. I love that part of the course, it should be fun hitting that at mile 80ish.

Good luck to you, I expect that the full is gonna be a great race this year.
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [Oyster7] [ In reply to ]
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I have done every year of the race, Ironman and 70.3
1) I have never found the water to be particularly cold. Having said that, sensitivity to water temp is very individual. I am very comfortable with no wetsuit in anything 65 and over. High 40’s to low 50’s in a wetsuit is uncomfortable but doable for me. Expect the water to be between 58-65. Offer the past few years it has always been north of 60. If you have trouble with cold water, establish a plan to acclimate. Start with cold showers, and strongly consider ice baths. You will not need to do the typical 50ish temp, anything under 60 should be a significant help. I know very lean swimmers who swim no wetsuit, with no problem under 50- so you can definitely acclimate, and the sooner you start the easier it will be as you can be more gradual.
2) early bike- other than 2016 which was a definite outlier year, it has not been cold at the start of the bike. But as stated in other posts, pack everything and do NOT trust the forecasts- SG weather can change dramatically, without notice- particularly wind. As far as cold - see acclimation advice above.
3) bike overall- The climbs are not particularly difficult, the longer climbs typically 3-5%. Snow Canyon gets steeper as you go, so do not be too aggressive early. About 1/2 mile at 8-11% near the summit. The left turn to continue to Vayo is not steep. The most difficult part of the course is the downhill on “the wall”. This is the steepest part of the course on a relatively narrow road and stays very steep right into an off camber tight hairpin turn! I have ridden this several times in training for the old course while doing repeats on “the wall”. My first 2 attempts while going as slow as possible I did not successfully make the turn- thankfully there is an “escape” extension at the apex of the turn.
4) As also previously stated, this is NOT the old IM and 70.3 course. The 1st and last 2.5 ish miles of each loop is the same, but after that instead of turning right to go up a brutal hill, you turn left, and go slightly downhill for the next 4 miles, most of which is on a shaded bike/run path, turn around and come back to do it all over again. The steepest part of the course is the first couple miles, which is not that steep.
I hope this helps you and others, PM if you want more details
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Re: IM St. George <= ADVICE Needed [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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I've held off responding to all this super-helpful advice under the assumption that folks would get bored with the topic and move on. Clearly, that's not been the case, and I'm grateful for every one of the posts. Thank you. You've all been so incredibly generous in sharing your thoughts and experience. I'm looking forward to the race and feel much better prepared, intellectually, for the course. Much obliged!

Christopher from Portland, Oregon
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