Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless?

Sep 25, 19 9:37

Post #1 of 18 (39727 views)

Greetings to the forum. Like the majority here, I am looking to improve performance without entering into the realm of paralysis by analysis. I'm a 54 year old male, 5'10" 167 lbs, BOPer. I have three 70.3s and one IM under my belt over the last 3 years. I'm currently training for IMAZ 2019.

Over the course of the last 22 weeks I have half-ass paid attention to the "Training Status" on Garmin Connect, using TP Fitness/Fatigue/Form to loosely guide me. I say "loosely" because I have only opted to skip training in the past due to how I felt, not what TP (or Garmin) says.

During this time frame Garmin's Training Status has vacillated between, Recovery, Maintaining, and Productive, with varying levels of fatigue felt on any given day. This prior weekend I had my long bike ride (4 hrs) on Saturday, and my long run (1h50m) on Sunday. I felt fantastic on my bike, with plenty of energy after 4 hrs. I felt moderately fatigued during and after my run, but not overwhelmingly so. Come the end of the weekend my 7-Day training load appeared to be consistent over the last several weeks, showing neither a significant upswing or downturn in training volume, but Garmin's Training Status now showed "Unproductive." Garmin's explanation of "Unproductive" says my training load is good, but my fitness is decreasing. Based on how I feel physically, I experience varying levels of fatigue (duh, I'm training for an Ironman for crying out loud), but my bike and run fitness are steadily improving. We won't talk about my swim, which is a wet train wreck.

I don't plan to change my training based on the Garmin Training Status, however I am curious if it's something I should pay more attention to. I'm interested in input/experience on this subject.

Thanks in advance.

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 11:27

Post #2 of 18 (39642 views)

Looking forward to hearing responses to this. 53 and also training for IM AZ (first full after 6 halfs). I notice that on midweek runs more at a tempo pace, I tend to get "prodcutvie" or "maintaining", while on longer, slower weekend runs or bricks it is almost always "unproductive".

I've also noticed that for both running and cycling my VO2 max is slightly lower (from 55 in december to between 50-52 now), although according to trainerroad, my ftp has increased a good bit (190 in december, 237 now). Not sure how to take that....

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 11:39

Post #3 of 18 (39614 views)

I would disable it if possible. It’s not worth paying attention to. I did a hardish 10k session a week or so ago and my garmin said I needed 72 hours for recovery. It’s about as useful as the running dynamics on certain garmin models.

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 11:43

Post #4 of 18 (39603 views)

I'm a meticulous TrainingPeaks user, but I also receive the Garmin Training Status alerts on my Garmin. In my view, the Garmin Training Status is pretty worthless. In part, this is because it doesn't take into account your training periodization. During base period, it is completely wrong. It might (or might not) be better during build phase.

This may be more than you want to know. I'm now about halfway through my "middle base" training period for spring, 2020. (I do ultra-endurance races, so I use a very long base phase.) I've been training primarily in zones 2 & 3 (with zone 5 and sweet spot intervals thrown in once or twice a week). My CTL has been running between 102 and 106 for the last couple months. But Garmin Training Status says I'm "UNPRODUCTIVE." When you dig down through the pages, Garmin correctly notes that my "low aerobic" training load is good. And it correctly notes that I haven't been doing a lot of high aerobic and anerobic training -- just enough to maintain fitness at those levels. So, it shows me in the Optimal Range for low aerobic and well outside (low) the optimal range for high aerobic and anaerobic.

If I followed Garmin's Training Status advice and cranked up my training volume and intensity, it would be an excellent formula for overtraining. Especially during base phase, Garmin's Training Status is worthless and, if a person takes it to heart, potentially dangerous.

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 12:03

Post #5 of 18 (39564 views)

I've been using Garmin Connect since April of 2007 when my wife bought me a brand new nice and shiny FR205 for my birthday. Currently I have a 935XT and 520 plus and I have never heard of Garmin Training Status.

I went to my account and looked for what you are talking about and can't find it. The closest thing I have is the Performance Condition number that pops up on both devices at 12 minutes of activity, and the Training Effect (aerobic) number that appears in the summary. Both are based on heart rate and effort, either power or pace, and both are affect by enough external factors to have limited to no value to most people as a training metric.

Can you point me to the metric you are asking about?

"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 12:05

Post #6 of 18 (39557 views)

Very close to worthless. In my experience the VO2 max calculations (your "fitness score") are heavily biased towards certain intensity ranges, a sort of "cardiac efficiency sweet spot" if you will. Incidentally, I find this intensity range to usually be sweet spot intensity (~.88-.94 IF) or in certain cases threshold intensity (~.90-1.0 IF). Zone 2 / endurance training, and VO2 training (ironically) even more so tend to bias the VO2 max readings lower *for the session itself*

Additionally, the fitness score calculation doesn't do a good job of accounting for cumulative fatigue. Consider two different "fitness score" measures: CTL vs. Garmin VO2 max. CTL is based on a 42 day exponentially weighted average of TSS, whereas Garmin is a black box calculation roughly based on your pace/power versus heart rate with a bias toward more recent sessions. When does pace/power versus heart rate decline? Either 1. when *functionally* overreaching (NOT overtraining - although that will reduce your efficiency factor also obviously) or 2. when under training for a material period of time. Notice the conflict between CTL and #1 (functional overreaching). In the former case, CTL 'fitness' will be higher, in the latter case, Garmin 'fitness' will be lower. Accordingly, Garmin might say your training is "unproductive" just because your Garmin 'fitness' is decreasing with a constant or increasing training load (when in reality you are just overreaching slightly), whereas your CTL would be steadily increasing*. All you would need in this case to start seeing improved pace/power vs. heart rate is a slight taper (or a deload week/period if that's part of your training plan), but of course you don't want to do that until it's time to race or strategically deload. Hence how your Garmin training status can lead you astray

* there are drawbacks to CTL as well, of course, but that's outside the scope of this post

I think the above makes the point, but there are several other ways the Garmin reading can get thrown out of wack, not least:

1. Power vs. Heart rate will differ for outdoor rides versus indoor rides
2. Same goes for outdoor runs vs. treadmill (even if you're using pace from a footpod in both instances; even more so if you're not getting pace in an apples to apples fashion)
3. Do you capture *all* your sessions adequately on the Garmin? Any uncaptured sessions will contribute to your real-life training load but not your Garmin training load, hence throwing off the algorithm
4. Anything that throws off your running pace relative to heart rate. I for example do a decent amount of running while commuting with a light backpack, which of course lowers my pace/heart rate ratio; I also do a lot of running in an urban environment that slows down average pace relative to sessions where i can just run unencumbred on a track or other less impeded environment

Last edited by: PedalNowNapL8r: Sep 25, 19 12:08

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 12:10

Post #7 of 18 (39534 views)

It's on the Garmin Connect app under Performance Stats.

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [PedalNowNapL8r] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 12:21

Post #8 of 18 (39503 views)

Your reply makes a lot of sense, and I will give much more credence to TP. I do capture all of my training on my Garmin 935. With 8.5 weeks until race day, I don't plan to waver from my training plan, which has been a combo of Be Iron Fit and 80/20 (heart rate based).

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 12:27

Post #9 of 18 (39489 views)

Yea don't give Garmin a second thought - follow your plan and your body (in reverse order). Garmin said I was "peaking" the week before AG Oly nationals and I had my worst race of the season. I think it said I was "unproductive" or "maintaining" the week before IM 70.3 Lake Placid and that was my best race of the season. Incidentally, IM 70.3 Lake Placid was also my lowest CTL of the season (and I'm pretty diligent in my tracking of TSS and having FTP set at reasonable numbers without tinkering with it too much). Data is fun in triathlon but the formulas and algorithms (if you can truly call them that) are so rudimentary at this point that you need to take any "insights" with a massive grain of salt and common sense. Read Alan Couzens for the most thoughtful writings on the limitations of CTL (or CTL's creator Andy Coggan for similar upfront disclaimers when it was created)

Last edited by: PedalNowNapL8r: Sep 25, 19 12:31

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 12:34

Post #10 of 18 (39456 views)

weakandpuny wrote:

It's on the Garmin Connect app under Performance Stats.

What watch do you have? LIke Jack, I do not see it. But, I have an older watch: 920xt. I have the same metrics that Jack mentions, plus VO2max, and Power Curve under performance Stats. I also have Lactate Threshold, but it has no data.

I also find the "Good", "Fair", "poor" ratings at the 12m mark nearly useless. Not entirely, but close. In the early season, I find they match reasonably well with sustained high-HR efforts within the last 24 hrs. Ie, if I go out and do an hour tempo run, where I might record a highest 60min average HR...then next day, I'm likely to get a "fair" rating, or maybe a "poor". That might loosely correlate with a very low TSB (eg, -30+tss on TP).

However, once the training ramps up... similar efforts will not elicit the same response. After I get past 50-60 CTL, I never see anything but a "good", no matter how my body/legs might feel or what I did the day before.

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 12:52

Post #11 of 18 (39409 views)

I have the 935, but the Training Status is on the Garmin Connect app. I believe it will show for the 920 as well, as that was my previous watch.

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 12:56

Post #12 of 18 (39397 views)

Its garbage for triathlons. The whole training cycle for a 70.3 of mine it told me I was unproductive and only would change to productive if I had a VERY intense run. The bike would barely register and it doesn't even account for swims. Volume wise, I was doing way more than my other experience with it during a marathon cycle. For running ONLY, I think it was pretty good. When I felt wrecked my training low would be quite high and on the verge of over-reaching, and then on my recovery weeks it would respond as such.

One thing I noticed, if you are ever in a "non-productive" state according to Garmin and its bothering you, go out and run really hard intervals and then magically your productive regardless of the fact you good get injured from it lol.

Use this link to save $5 off your USAT membership renewal:
https://membership.usatriathlon.org/...A2-BAD7-6137B629D9B7

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 13:09

Post #13 of 18 (39363 views)

weakandpuny wrote:

I have the 935, but the Training Status is on the Garmin Connect app. I believe it will show for the 920 as well, as that was my previous watch.

It also pops up on my Fenix 5 screen during activities. I find it pretty useless.

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 13:20

Post #14 of 18 (39332 views)

I'm thinking it is complete trash. I've been dual recording my Zwift races (for the Zwiftpower dual recording data analysis) with my Wife's Garmin 1030 (I've updated the user settings and FTP since she's off the bike for a bit), anyway, it's always amusing to see 50-70 hour suggested recovery time after a sub-hour race.

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 13:27

Post #15 of 18 (39325 views)

weakandpuny wrote:

I have the 935, but the Training Status is on the Garmin Connect app. I believe it will show for the 920 as well, as that was my previous watch.

GC does not show a training status metric for me. I have both an iPhone and an Android---and I've had the 920 for three years. I have the latest versions of both (updated 20 Sep 2019). Neither app shows the metric you refer to. I also have the latest firmware in my watch.

GC web reports does list the Training Status under the available graphs. However, the graph doesn't show any results, and I get a notice that I need to updload two weeks worth of runs / rides with VO2max data. I certainly have VO2max data, so something must be wrong with the format of the data collected from a 920xt vs. the 935.

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 14:31

Post #16 of 18 (39252 views)

Here's how it looks on my 935. Appreciate all of the great information! I'll ignore.

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 15:12

Post #17 of 18 (39221 views)

The really wonky thing with Garmin Connect is that the metics it shows are entirely dependent on the device providing it because the FirstBeat licensed metics are computed on device and not in the cloud. It's likely that the 920xt records enough data to do most of the metics from the 945, but since Garmin is focused on hardware sales (vs say having a subscription for training metics and computing them off device) there's no way to get these metrics on older devices.

Re: Garmin Training Status - Worthwhile or Worthless? [weakandpuny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 19 16:05

Post #18 of 18 (39162 views)

Training Status compares changes in VO2Max with changes in Training Load, and tries to make an educated guess as to what is going on. VO2Max in turn compares your HR (as a % of maxHR) with your pace/power. So fatigue/illness/poor sleep can lead to a higher HR for a given effort, and a lower VO2Max, and therefore a negative TS, even if your fitness is unchanged. Heat can also increase HR and decrease estimated VO2Max on older devices, although newer devices (945, Fenix 6, Edge 530/830) take heat into account.

And like others, I find that the VO2Max estimation is somewhat biased against long slow distance, and rewards higher intensity efforts.

If you have a good plan, and monitor your fatigue (whether through CTL/ATL, HRV, etc or just listening to your body) TS can largely be ignored. Although if the status says OVERTRAINING, it may be worth taking some recovery time.

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