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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [John Salt] [ In reply to ]
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John Salt wrote:
Jon, thank you for giving me your perspective.

First - Wow, Sorry! I screwed that up. Just redid a resort of data and in fact there were 127 who chose a wave. The vast majority of the remainder actually moved back a wave, none of which were in a podium or top 5. My apologies on the misinformation. I could have a look at those who moved up to wave #1 vs where they would have started, simply out of interests sake.

Second - Full disclosure my feeling as a former athlete was always that you should race in your wave because then you are racing in exactly the same conditions as everyone else in your age group. I had a lot of sometimes heated discussions with customers who wanted to move up. Then, I tried the choose a wave option based on feedback a few years ago. Perhaps I allowed my thinking to be skewed by more vocal customer/athletes. Your and others feedback are causing me to rethink Choose Your own Wave for Barrelman, and maybe the series.

Maybe the hybrid should be, choose your wave if you want to MOVE BACK because you are an uneasy swimmer. Maybe that would satisfy the safety issue and re-level the field on the competitive side. Sometimes we make decisions that we think are in the best interest of the customer and what they want....but are wrong. I am not afraid to do so.....Anyone else have an opinion?


At registration 3 groupings with general descriptions of each grouping.
Elite (Prize Money Eligible)
Age Group
Novice

Elite is wave 1. Age Group split into wave 2-X, Novice X+1.

No extra money to be in any wave. You have the option to move someone out of Elite to Age Group if you check their results and they should not be there.
Last edited by: RobAllen: Sep 24, 19 4:51
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [RobAllen] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like you are in my head. Spent yesterday crunching numbers and historical numbers at start and finish....thanks for the input! Stay tuned 😎

John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [Apollo71] [ In reply to ]
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I've raced Barrelman twice in the past and it remains my favourite race to date. Despite being a point to point bike course, the race team pulled it off flawlessly without any logistical issues.


Shifting back to the Race itself, it was an absolutely amazing day at the Barrelman

Here's the scene, bringing in the Final Finisher, something that myself as the Race Announcer and the Multisport Canada Staff take seriously - making it a great experience for everyone! [video] - https://www.instagram.com/...rce=ig_web_copy_link - John Salt, Multisport Canada Founder and VP of Marketing & Sales Joseph Park greeting the Final Finisher at the Finish Line.

This gentleman, missed the time cut-off last year for the 2nd lap on the run, and had unfinished business. This year he became a Barrelman Finisher! Emotional stuff!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [John Salt] [ In reply to ]
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John Salt wrote:
Jon, thank you for giving me your perspective.

First - Wow, Sorry! I screwed that up. Just redid a resort of data and in fact there were 127 who chose a wave. The vast majority of the remainder actually moved back a wave, none of which were in a podium or top 5. My apologies on the misinformation. I could have a look at those who moved up to wave #1 vs where they would have started, simply out of interests sake.

Second - Full disclosure my feeling as a former athlete was always that you should race in your wave because then you are racing in exactly the same conditions as everyone else in your age group. I had a lot of sometimes heated discussions with customers who wanted to move up. Then, I tried the choose a wave option based on feedback a few years ago. Perhaps I allowed my thinking to be skewed by more vocal customer/athletes. Your and others feedback are causing me to rethink Choose Your own Wave for Barrelman, and maybe the series.

Maybe the hybrid should be, choose your wave if you want to MOVE BACK because you are an uneasy swimmer. Maybe that would satisfy the safety issue and re-level the field on the competitive side. Sometimes we make decisions that we think are in the best interest of the customer and what they want....but are wrong. I am not afraid to do so.....Anyone else have an opinion?


John you have your own answer ( highlighted above) .people that want to race want to race in an open group ie the best. and as you say yourself, you have to race in the exact same conditions. so only money for those in the open wave
There is people that want to win their age group and people that want to race for overall. They can make a choice what they want

btw what you say (ie underlined) is exactly the same monty says lol

in the open wave there is no age group price. not in the open wave age group podium chance
this is also an help in terms of security as you have less faster people steaming through the field so it increases the safety you pointed out.
this is always the biggest risk when suddenly a very fast athlete goes through the waves before them and beginner athletes are taken by surprise as they don't anticipate somebody that fast.
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [pk] [ In reply to ]
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btw what you say (ie underlined) is exactly the same monty says lol //

Ha, I was wondering when someone was going to see all these great ideas being presented were already there!! That's ok, as long as they get to the right place, that's what matters...(-;
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [John Salt] [ In reply to ]
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John, great race as always. I've done it 3 times now (1x triathlon and 2x aquabike).

As the winner of the Aquabike, my only suggestion is to offer prize money for that race as well. 😎
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Please don't assume that we were not aware of these options. After 19 years one might assume we actually know what we are doing...just saying

John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"
Last edited by: John Salt: Sep 24, 19 9:11
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your feedback and input PK! Yes, that is why I highlighted that section. I wanted to have full disclosure as to my own personal thoughts. The pick your own wave was an experiment in an attempt to satisfy customer requests. Sometime you might make the wrong decisions but that doesn't mean you don't try. You just have to be able to realize and admit that perhaps it is not the best solution and it might be time to try something different, or revert back.

I don't assume I am right on every topic and don't like standing on soap boxes like some. :-)

John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"
Last edited by: John Salt: Sep 24, 19 9:33
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
btw what you say (ie underlined) is exactly the same monty says lol //

Ha, I was wondering when someone was going to see all these great ideas being presented were already there!! That's ok, as long as they get to the right place, that's what matters...(-;

The issues of the Internet...
I guess had you used a bit less " I know it all language "( and yes I agree what you say is 100% correct) it would have come across better.

It's good to try other things and I guess what the good Rds ( of which John no doubt is one of them) are doing, they try and then are able to recognise when they go wrong. Like felix at challenge Roth with the run course.
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [pk] [ In reply to ]
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pk wrote:
John Salt wrote:
Jon, thank you for giving me your perspective.

First - Wow, Sorry! I screwed that up. Just redid a resort of data and in fact there were 127 who chose a wave. The vast majority of the remainder actually moved back a wave, none of which were in a podium or top 5. My apologies on the misinformation. I could have a look at those who moved up to wave #1 vs where they would have started, simply out of interests sake.

Second - Full disclosure my feeling as a former athlete was always that you should race in your wave because then you are racing in exactly the same conditions as everyone else in your age group. I had a lot of sometimes heated discussions with customers who wanted to move up. Then, I tried the choose a wave option based on feedback a few years ago. Perhaps I allowed my thinking to be skewed by more vocal customer/athletes. Your and others feedback are causing me to rethink Choose Your own Wave for Barrelman, and maybe the series.

Maybe the hybrid should be, choose your wave if you want to MOVE BACK because you are an uneasy swimmer. Maybe that would satisfy the safety issue and re-level the field on the competitive side. Sometimes we make decisions that we think are in the best interest of the customer and what they want....but are wrong. I am not afraid to do so.....Anyone else have an opinion?



John you have your own answer ( highlighted above) .people that want to race want to race in an open group ie the best. and as you say yourself, you have to race in the exact same conditions. so only money for those in the open wave
There is people that want to win their age group and people that want to race for overall. They can make a choice what they want

btw what you say (ie underlined) is exactly the same monty says lol

in the open wave there is no age group price. not in the open wave age group podium chance
this is also an help in terms of security as you have less faster people steaming through the field so it increases the safety you pointed out.
this is always the biggest risk when suddenly a very fast athlete goes through the waves before them and beginner athletes are taken by surprise as they don't anticipate somebody that fast.

I'm in agreement with pk here-prize money gets awarded only to those who register for an open/elite wave, AG awards go to those who compete in their assigned AG waves (arranged however seems safest). Sure, this could create a scenario where those who wouldn't be competitive within their AGs decide to sign up for the open/elite wave to get an earlier start, but I doubt that there would really be many athletes who would want to do this. I'd be willing to pay a few extra dollars to be in an elite wave, too, if that was needed to discourage that. For perspective, I've raced Barrelman twice, love the event, and have nothing but good things to say about it-actually was pretty disappointed to be injured and unable to race this year. I really appreciate having a local-ish (~1.5 hours away) race that gives me a chance to race without travel expenses and get a bit of a payday-makes way more sense than travelling to a WTC 70.3 and very, very rarely cracking into the very tail end of the money. It's also just a really well-run, fun environment to race in! Definitely one of my favorite run courses in particular. I did win the women's race a couple of times a few years back in fairly tight races; one of those years, the second place female came out of an AG wave. She had only started a minute behind me, though, I think we got out of the water in fairly close proximity, and it wasn't hard to calculate the differential on the run course, so in that circumstance, the stagger didn't matter or impact the race at all. But, if there is the option to have everyone in the running for money head-to-head, I believe that's for the better! As a weaker swimmer, I'm also always for a little bit more time before the AG waves start if possible, too, as I feel it makes the race environment a bit more fair/equal for all involved women. Anyways, just my $.02! I also know that someone like my husband, a decent AGer, would be more than fine for competing for AG prizes, but not being eligible for an off chance of cash. John does an excellent job with this race, and if I'm healthy next year, I'd register for Barrelman in a heartbeat regardless of who starts where-at the end of the day, any prize money is a nice bonus for a great event, and it's just about racing hard anyways!
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [jlh1750] [ In reply to ]
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For perspective, I've raced Barrelman twice, love the event, and have nothing but good things to say about it-actually was pretty disappointed to be injured and unable to race this year.


Jennie,

That's unfortunate. Was wondering where you and your husband were this year, when I did not see you on the Pro/Elite entry list.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [John Salt] [ In reply to ]
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2X I've been that AG'r coming from behind that got on the overall podium at Barrelman. Nobody ever came up to me saying that I shouldn't have started where I did, but I can see the reasons why Monty feels this way. I'd say there are advantages to starting in a later wave (not on the swim of course, but certainly on the bike). Maybe that would be something to try next year. Pros and anyone who thinks they are fast enough for a top 5 position and to try for prize money should start in the very first wave. It would still be relatively small, likely 20 - 30 people or so. You just need to make the rules clear that only those starting in that wave are eligible for prize money.

Another great event this year John! My 5th in a row at this point.

Luke
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [drluke12] [ In reply to ]
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It seems like you are also in my head. I have been crunching the data and it seems that with the historical analysis we are going to be able to come up with a solution that athlete/customers will like. Thanks also for the kind words Luke!

John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"
Last edited by: John Salt: Sep 24, 19 15:48
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the kind words Jennie. Like Steve I was wondering where you were as well. I hope you can make it back as well in 2020.

John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Yes Steve, emotional stuff is right!

This is an example of the hard calls we have to make and then one of the rewarding things about what we do.

Last year I had to stop Shane from starting his second loop of the run for his own well being on an incredibly hot day (38C/100F). We both had tears in our eyes when he said he was coming back in 2019 to prove he could do it.

When he crossed this year we both had those tears again for a different reason. We exchanged some very pleasant words and he went on to post on the Barrelman Facebook page that this finish was one of the proudest moments in his life.

John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [John Salt] [ In reply to ]
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The race was another huge success, and I think it is pretty cool that EVERYONE has a shot at earning a pay day. I have never heard anyone complain about it. In fact it is the complete opposite. It is fun listening to other AG athletes talking, looking up times, scoping out the pros, etc. to see if they will "have a shot" at winning some money on the day.

At the end of the day, if you are a pro and not fast enough to earn a payday and you are sour about it...Maybe you shouldn't be a "pro".

This was my first year racing the full thing (several times relay), and it keeps getting better every year.

Can't wait for 2020!
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [John Salt] [ In reply to ]
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This was my first year doing this event and I wanted to chime in and say it was a very well run event! Really enjoyed the swim venue, bike course was super fast, and the run sucked! The run sucking was my fault though as I came in to this with no training under my belt longer than 3 hours this year, my bike mileage total for the year around 300 miles, and swimming around 10k total for the year. Running would typically be my strength, but after a 40 minute swim and 21 mph avg on the bike, I fell apart on the run...

I personally took advantage of the 1st AG wave option. When I signed up, I had visions of actually training this year and being in 4:30 shape. I didn't realize the time constraints of a 14 month old while also trying to finish building a house... So my plans of actually competing turned into instead actually hanging back at the start of the first AG wave and trying to find open water to swim in. In hindsight, I wish I had started out fast as I ended up swimming around a lot of slower swimmers that I let go ahead of me.

Regarding allowing later AG waves compete for prize money, that is ultimately your decision as a race/RD. However, it ultimately is not a fair situation. Sure, you likely won't have pros complaining about it because they know going into the race that is the policy, so it is not something they can complain about as they knew going in. And of course you aren't going to have AG athletes complaining about it, why would they complain about it as it is a chance to earn money which they seldom get!

Back in 2011, when I was competing towards the front of the AG field in local races, I competed in a triathlon that advertised prize money. It was advertised as being available only to those who entered the first wave which was a mass start, enter that wave and you are eligible for the money, but removed from AG awards. I had a decent race and was 5th across the line. During the race, I knew exactly where I was. 4th place was only a minute or so ahead of me on the run, I could have dug a little deeper and tried to catch them, but I risked blowing up and falling to 6th, out of the money! So I didn't try and catch 4th. The AG race started later and for them it was a time trial start, every 5 seconds. By the end of the day, I had fallen to 12th overall. Someone told me that they had heard the AG racers were going to be given the money, I complained. To this day, that race advertises this as "the Rigdon Rule", that only the elites or first wave are eligible for prize money.

It is easy to say that the elites should have just gone harder or that if they got beat by an AG they don't deserve the money. However, the elites are all starting in the same wave and likely know when they get passed or pass another elite. So they typically have a pretty good idea where they are at during the race, if they are still "in the money". By allowing AG athletes who are able to sling-shot there way through the bike course the opportunity to take the money in my opinion is not fair. If AG athletes are able to take the money, elite athletes should be able to take the AG awards, but I'm pretty sure AG athletes would recognize that as not being fair either!

I think a fair solution would be to continue to allow a "1st wave option", but that 1st wave option should be the 1st wave, not separate from the elite wave and they should start at least 5 minutes ahead of the AG waves, if not 10 or 15 minutes. This gives the announcer and spectators better clarity as to who is "winning" the race. Anyone is allowed to enter that 1st wave, but only those who enter the 1st wave are eligible for prize money and overall awards and everyone who enters the 1st wave is removed from AG awards. So if you are a fast swimmer and you don't care about being removed from AG awards, enter this wave. Or you are a fast AG and think you might get prize money, enter this wave. Everyone who enters this wave gets a "1st" tat on their calf, during the race if you're competing for prize money and you see a "1st" pass you, you know that's a money spot. If possible, this group should be together in transition so you can count bikes when entering T2 and know how many are out on the run... Also, if possible, an updated list of those in this wave should be on the race website, along with the athletes top 1/2 Iron result so athletes can see where they might stack up and if they should enter this wave or not. Cap this wave at a certain number, but allow athletes to switch to it up to the day before. If only 4 women have entered and prize money goes 5 deep, a bunch more will likely switch over. To make this "wave" more likely to get people to enter, keep prize money the same, but add free entry to the following year available to top 10 of each gender.

Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Great idea Tony...
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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This past week I said to a few posters that they were in my head, Tony, you also made it in there. We actually opened registration yesterday with the following options:
  1. I will be racing for the prize money and will not be eligible for age group awards
  2. I want to race in my age group and predict to finish in a time of less than 5 hours 15 minutes
  3. I want to race in my age group and predict to finish between 5 hours 15 minutes & 5 hours, 45 minutes
  4. I want to race in my age group and will likely finish in more than 5 hours 45 minutes

We came up with this after I crunched the data for a few days and then calculated approximate expected waves sizes for options 2 and 3. Our intention is to make those waves a little smaller, send them off with the 5 minutes in between, which should make for a very uncluttered bike. What I did not consider, but will do so after your suggestions, will be creating that 5 minute (maybe 3) gap between the money wave and the second. I would not make it anymore than 5 minutes because it would mean having a much earlier start otherwise there are logistical implications that are unnecessary. I also really like the idea of a way to designate the first wave in body marking. Maybe we should get $ signs for tattoos.


I want to thank everyone who contributed positively to this discussion. All of your different perspectives contributed to my thought process.

John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [John Salt] [ In reply to ]
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John, I think the suggestion of putting a larger gap between the money wave and the second wave is a good idea. As I'm sure you noticed, there was a group of 3 of us in wave 1 that caught and passed most of the elite wave field. We caught the group chasing the front 2 with probably 5-600m to go and they were able to jump on the back of our group. Given the short distance it was unlikely to have any major impact on the overall race but making that gap 3-5 minutes would have eliminated the possibility.

Love the race, looking forward to doing it again in the future (but unfortunately not 2020...)
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [John Salt] [ In reply to ]
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I realize that I'm a bit late to the discussion, but one idea that hasn't been floated is to have athletes estimate a predicted swim time. Then when it comes time to do the waves, simply order people by swim time. I'd hazard that anyone vying for the overall would be in wave 1, and it puts all your slower swimmers in the back waves. Plus, it solves the issue of faster swimmers in slower waves, etc.

There is the downside that some athletes won't know their predicted swim time, but these are likely first timers and you can solve it with a check box that says "this is my first triathlon" - and then just put those guys in the last wave.

They do this at Meech Lake Tri in Gatineau, and it works well - they even number you in order by predicted swim time so you can just say wave 1 is athletes numbered 1-99, wave 2 is 100-199, etc. (or however many you want in a wave), and it keeps it easy to remember which wave you're in.
Last edited by: timbasile: Sep 27, 19 6:39
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Tim, thanks for the feedback and suggestion. We actually have tried this in the past however the number of athletes doing this distance for the first time is very high at Barrelman. The reason we did it in the first place was an effort to space athletes out as best we could so that we could try and avoid packs and drafting on what is a very flat course. Most years the wind takes care of that but a windless day is what we have to plan for. There are just too many athletes who don't know their possible time and if we were to put them all at the back we would potentially be creating the bike pack issue at the back of the race. That could be more problematic and unsafe than at the front.

Thanks again for you input!

John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"
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Re: Records at #BarrelmanTri [John Salt] [ In reply to ]
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multisportcanada canada A+ races. I miss them being west.

Monty just relax dude. We should be thankful theres an indie race that does well and is growing.

Fleck see you in Kona.

@rhyspencer
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