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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]
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DieselPete wrote:
Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible)

That guy is a swimmer, not a triathlete.

How fast can Mo Farah swim 1500m?

Noone seems to be disputing that there are athletes out there who run 3 or 5 miles in the time it takes them to swim 1. Just that they won't be winning any triathlons.
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, I think people are getting the wrong idea about these ratios. It is not a good thing to be at 4 or above, it is not about getting that number up. There is a limit somewhere around 3.7/.8 that is optimal, and that is what you shoot for. IF you are over 4, then you need to head over to the pool for some quicker yardages.. (-;

And just like in a real triathlon, the older you get, the harder running fast is as compared to swimming fast. So age graded adjustments need to head down from that 3.8, but as close as you can get...
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [fruit thief] [ In reply to ]
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fruit thief wrote:
DieselPete wrote:
Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible)

That guy is a swimmer, not a triathlete.

How fast can Mo Farah swim 1500m?

Noone seems to be disputing that there are athletes out there who run 3 or 5 miles in the time it takes them to swim 1. Just that they won't be winning any triathlons.

Well, he’s a swimmer now but even if he were a triathlete tomorrow he wouldn’t have a 4:1 ration unless his swimming fell off a cliff.

But I think we are agreeing; if someone is in the extreme right tail of the bell curve for either discipline they won’t have a 4:1 ratio or probably anything close. Their body type, being so right for one discipline, will be at least somewhat wrong for the other.

The very fast 3.6:1 type guys probably have a more general physique and swim in the low to mid 20s not the mid teens (16:00).
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]
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The very fast 3.6:1 type guys probably have a more general physique and swim in the low to mid 20s not the mid teens (16:00). //

Well it is pretty easy to see what would be the gold standard, just take the best olympic distance triathlete of all time, Allistar Brownlee. He could probably do a low 17 minutes for a pool mile, and figuring a 13;50 or so 5k run time, that leaves a little more than a k more to fit into that swim time. So right at about 3.7 or so, that's the gold standard, everything else needs to strive for that, since he is equally as good in both those sports, as well as cycling. No one better in the world, ever...
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
MRid wrote:
DieselPete wrote:
Rumpled wrote:


As a collegiate swimmer, I was a poor runner. 17 flat 1650 and maybe a 7:30 mile. Did no real timed running. So, that's somewhere 2-2.5?
As a 50+ outta shape doing some running, I do about a 29 minute 5k. Not swimming much at all, but could pull off about a 25 min cruising 1650. So, getting closer to 3.


Very much in line with the current collegiate swimmer I talked to.

Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible). He probably isn’t going to be a 16:00 5k runner either. (Likely the wrong body type). He’s more likely to be 2.25 or 2.5:1. To be 3:1 he has to be about a 16:32 5k runner. That’s certainly possible but he would be quite a stud.


I think the "you suck at something" is poorly worded. It's more intended to mean that you suck at something compared to your skill in the other ability (the one you don't suck at), not compared to the population as a whole in that something.
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OK we can flip it around another way and say are awesome at one sport and average at the other one given your abilities in the former. The point being that it is possible to get 4:1 for a given person. It just takes time and effort. If you can get to pro triathlete type body composition (light enough to run, muscular enough to swim) then its doable. Not everyone can get to that body composition (either they are large swimmer types and cannot get lean enough). Skinny runner types can get to that body composition, but generally their swim technique can never get there. Its totally doable for a fast age grouper who can do a 5:30 running mile to do a 5:30 400m swim. (or 6 min in each or 6:30 in each).

Why everyone is crazily fast on slowtwitch even they don't have training in a certain discipline, like the example of running 7'30" mile without run training? I run about 8' mile for around Olympic distance after training.
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]
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DieselPete wrote:
Rumpled wrote:


As a collegiate swimmer, I was a poor runner. 17 flat 1650 and maybe a 7:30 mile. Did no real timed running. So, that's somewhere 2-2.5?
As a 50+ outta shape doing some running, I do about a 29 minute 5k. Not swimming much at all, but could pull off about a 25 min cruising 1650. So, getting closer to 3.


Very much in line with the current collegiate swimmer I talked to.

Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible). He probably isn’t going to be a 16:00 5k runner either. (Likely the wrong body type). He’s more likely to be 2.25 or 2.5:1. To be 3:1 he has to be about a 16:32 5k runner. That’s certainly possible but he would be quite a stud.

You missed a couple of posters who pointed out that the 4:1 changes as the distance increases. It's very close to 4:1 for the WRs in the mile (3:42) vs WR in the 400 LCM free (3:40). When you compare the 1500 LCM free WR (14:31) to the 5000 m track record (12:37), the swimmer is holding under about 3:52 per 400 m pace for a "3.75 miles run equivalent" effort vs the runner going about 4:03 per mile for 3.11 miles. While they don't keep WRs for OW swims, the fastest non-current assisted 10,000 m swim I'm aware of is Ous Mellouli's 1:49:55 in the 2012 Oly, which is about a 4:24 per 400 m pace, vs the mary WR of 2:01:39 which is about 4:38 per mile. In summary, swimmers are able to hold a faster pace as the D increases.

I think the best way to evaluate a person's swim times vs run times is use the % above WR for comparable race distances, e.g. 1500 m swim vs 5000 m run. In this manner you get pretty close to an apples to apples comparison. For example, a 22:00 1500 LCM free is about 51.5% slower than the 14:31 WR. Running a 19:07 for 5000 m would be 51.5% slower than the 12:37 WR. If swimming in a 25 yd or 25 m pool, use the WR for short course pools, which is 14:08. Going 21:25 for 1500 scm or 1650 scy would be about 51.5% slower than the 1500 scm WR.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
The very fast 3.6:1 type guys probably have a more general physique and swim in the low to mid 20s not the mid teens (16:00). //

Well it is pretty easy to see what would be the gold standard, just take the best olympic distance triathlete of all time, Allistar Brownlee. He could probably do a low 17 minutes for a pool mile, and figuring a 13;50 or so 5k run time, that leaves a little more than a k more to fit into that swim time. So right at about 3.7 or so, that's the gold standard, everything else needs to strive for that, since he is equally as good in both those sports, as well as cycling. No one better in the world, ever...

Using Brownlee (and crew) for the gold standard that we should get to covers it. I would need to get my 5km pace down to 6:45 per mile to achieve the equivalent of my current 1500m swim pace. Its just short of 21 min 5km. I won't say "not gonna happen". because if I say that it will not.
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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my current 1500m swim pace//

Dont forget to add the extra time it would take to swim just over another 100 meters, so maybe 1;45 to get the real mile? That would give you a bit more on the run end, that is how I figured it for Allistar, and for myself.. Just a real pool mile, no wetsuits, just swimming in a place we know the exact distance.






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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
my current 1500m swim pace//

Dont forget to add the extra time it would take to swim just over another 100 meters, so maybe 1;45 to get the real mile? That would give you a bit more on the run end, that is how I figured it for Allistar, and for myself.. Just a real pool mile, no wetsuits, just swimming in a place we know the exact distance.






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Here is the math

1500m swim time x 400/1500 to get 400m swim pace. This should be your mile run pace if you are comparing straight up against top runners proficiency. If we use triathlete proficiency we now go to (400m swim or 1 mile run) x 4/3.7 to get "max triathlete proficiency pace per mile for 5km. (if we want to roughly compare the physiological load over a 1500m to a 5000m run as Erikmulk did, which I think is pretty well similar pacing).

So plugging it in

23.35 1500m swim x 400/1500 x 4/3.7 ~ 6:48 per mile for 5000m....which equates to 21 min 5000m. If I used 3.5 then 22:12. 22.5 does not seem like its totally out of the range of possiblity with a good year of training, but certainly not any time soon. But if I do that much run training, my swim time will slow down because I will get leaner and sink more in the pool which goes back to "if you're too close to 4:1, it means you need to get into the pool"
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Last edited by: devashish_paul: Sep 22, 19 12:00
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [fruit thief] [ In reply to ]
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fruit thief wrote:
DieselPete wrote:
Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible)

That guy is a swimmer, not a triathlete.

How fast can Mo Farah swim 1500m?

Noone seems to be disputing that there are athletes out there who run 3 or 5 miles in the time it takes them to swim 1. Just that they won't be winning any triathlons.

And yet - I’m one of those people who is at the 5/1 ratio, and I have won numerous triathlons.

(Mostly sprints, but I also managed 3rd OA at SOS Cape Cod, and SOS events are basically swim/run races with a bike warmup.)

/channeling my inner WaterFunBoy -
I’ve also been USAT AA for 12 straight years.
(Pretty sure 2019 will make it 13)

So, you were saying?.....


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy's Slaw, you got me.

And I accept your point. Even at 10:1 you could theoretically win races.

And no disrespect for your achievement. But at a high level, rarely will races be won with a significantly unbalanced performance. Even if you run 30 minutes for 10km, you won't win if it takes you 23 minutes to swim 1500m (5:1). Or if you swim 17 minutes, but it takes you 38 minutes to run 10km (3:1). That's why we won't see Phelps or Kipchoge troubling the podium at ITU any time soon, in my view.

Someone above posted the winner's splits from 2012 Olympics. 17 mins + 29 mins + change. The class and balance of that performance is a thing of beauty. 3.9 miles run in the time it would have taken to swim 1.
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
fruit thief wrote:
DieselPete wrote:
Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible)

That guy is a swimmer, not a triathlete.

How fast can Mo Farah swim 1500m?

Noone seems to be disputing that there are athletes out there who run 3 or 5 miles in the time it takes them to swim 1. Just that they won't be winning any triathlons.

And yet - I’m one of those people who is at the 5/1 ratio, and I have won numerous triathlons.

(Mostly sprints, but I also managed 3rd OA at SOS Cape Cod, and SOS events are basically swim/run races with a bike warmup.)

/channeling my inner WaterFunBoy -
I’ve also been USAT AA for 12 straight years.
(Pretty sure 2019 will make it 13)

So, you were saying?.....

Doesn't mean you aren't giving up a ton in the water. I've won some sprints/Olys and OA top 10s at IMs & 70.3s. My swim is weak and it keeps me from winning bigger races, yours does too by the sound of it.

And AA doesn't mean you are balanced and poised to do well against top end competition, I know from experience.

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Here is an interesting exercise.

Let's take a hypothetical balanced pro on a moderately hard course.

48 min IM swim, 4:30 bike and 2:48 run.

This pro is covering 1 mile swimming in 20:00 and running 3.1 miles in around the same pace.

So roughly in an Ironman, that guy is going 3.1:1 ratio.

Of course his run pace is degraded after the first 5.5 hours of racing, but in theory if he paces well, he's doing everything around 75-80% FTP
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]
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My best mile time was about a minute slower than my best 5k time. So maybe 3.25
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Let's take a hypothetical balanced pro on a moderately hard course.

48 min IM swim, 4:30 bike and 2:48 run. //

Or we can go back as in my example of Allistar, take Mark Allen when he was at his best at Kona. 50 minute swim and 2;38 run, you can do the math, but not far off the 3.7 perfect score I bet...And of course the degradation has to be a factor for a couple of tenths in an ironman..
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit wrote:
Murphy'sLaw wrote:
fruit thief wrote:
DieselPete wrote:
Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible)

That guy is a swimmer, not a triathlete.

How fast can Mo Farah swim 1500m?

Noone seems to be disputing that there are athletes out there who run 3 or 5 miles in the time it takes them to swim 1. Just that they won't be winning any triathlons.

And yet - I’m one of those people who is at the 5/1 ratio, and I have won numerous triathlons.

(Mostly sprints, but I also managed 3rd OA at SOS Cape Cod, and SOS events are basically swim/run races with a bike warmup.)

/channeling my inner WaterFunBoy -
I’ve also been USAT AA for 12 straight years.
(Pretty sure 2019 will make it 13)

So, you were saying?.....

Doesn't mean you aren't giving up a ton in the water. I've won some sprints/Olys and OA top 10s at IMs & 70.3s. My swim is weak and it keeps me from winning bigger races, yours does too by the sound of it.

And AA doesn't mean you are balanced and poised to do well against top end competition, I know from experience.

I am absolutely giving up a ton in the water.

And I never once claimed I was “balanced”.

My point was to disprove the blanket statement that “you can’t win a triathlon” if that swim/run ratio is that far out of whack.
Which I did.

Josh Beck is my spirit animal.
He has beaten many Pro triathletes at the IM & HIM distances, in spite of (somehow) being an even worse swimmer than I am.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
MrRabbit wrote:
Murphy'sLaw wrote:
fruit thief wrote:
DieselPete wrote:
Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible)

That guy is a swimmer, not a triathlete.

How fast can Mo Farah swim 1500m?

Noone seems to be disputing that there are athletes out there who run 3 or 5 miles in the time it takes them to swim 1. Just that they won't be winning any triathlons.

And yet - I’m one of those people who is at the 5/1 ratio, and I have won numerous triathlons.

(Mostly sprints, but I also managed 3rd OA at SOS Cape Cod, and SOS events are basically swim/run races with a bike warmup.)

/channeling my inner WaterFunBoy -
I’ve also been USAT AA for 12 straight years.
(Pretty sure 2019 will make it 13)

So, you were saying?.....

Doesn't mean you aren't giving up a ton in the water. I've won some sprints/Olys and OA top 10s at IMs & 70.3s. My swim is weak and it keeps me from winning bigger races, yours does too by the sound of it.

And AA doesn't mean you are balanced and poised to do well against top end competition, I know from experience.

I am absolutely giving up a ton in the water.

And I never once claimed I was “balanced”.

My point was to disprove the blanket statement that “you can’t win a triathlon” if that swim/run ratio is that far out of whack.
Which I did.

Josh Beck is my spirit animal.
He has beaten many Pro triathletes at the IM & HIM distances, in spite of (somehow) being an even worse swimmer than I am.

I don't think you are at 5:1 unless we count your 1:39 Kona swim. You have done 35 min 1.2 mile swims which would be 28 min for 1 mile albeit with wetsuit. You would need to run five miles at 5:36 pace which I am not sure you can do
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I’m pretty slow in regards to swimming. 1.2 miles at 36 minutes. Guessing I could make 4.8-5 miles comfortably. Maybe a little more if at race pace.
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
MRid wrote:
DieselPete wrote:
Rumpled wrote:


As a collegiate swimmer, I was a poor runner. 17 flat 1650 and maybe a 7:30 mile. Did no real timed running. So, that's somewhere 2-2.5?
As a 50+ outta shape doing some running, I do about a 29 minute 5k. Not swimming much at all, but could pull off about a 25 min cruising 1650. So, getting closer to 3.


Very much in line with the current collegiate swimmer I talked to.

Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible). He probably isn’t going to be a 16:00 5k runner either. (Likely the wrong body type). He’s more likely to be 2.25 or 2.5:1. To be 3:1 he has to be about a 16:32 5k runner. That’s certainly possible but he would be quite a stud.


I think the "you suck at something" is poorly worded. It's more intended to mean that you suck at something compared to your skill in the other ability (the one you don't suck at), not compared to the population as a whole in that something.

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OK we can flip it around another way and say are awesome at one sport and average at the other one given your abilities in the former. The point being that it is possible to get 4:1 for a given person. It just takes time and effort. If you can get to pro triathlete type body composition (light enough to run, muscular enough to swim) then its doable. Not everyone can get to that body composition (either they are large swimmer types and cannot get lean enough). Skinny runner types can get to that body composition, but generally their swim technique can never get there. Its totally doable for a fast age grouper who can do a 5:30 running mile to do a 5:30 400m swim. (or 6 min in each or 6:30 in each).


Why everyone is crazily fast on slowtwitch even they don't have training in a certain discipline, like the example of running 7'30" mile without run training? I run about 8' mile for around Olympic distance after training.

My example was my estimate for a single mile. A few years later I did run an 8k in about 42? So, just past 8 minutes I think?
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]
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Badwater (see what I did there)
Last edited by: trail: Sep 23, 19 16:48
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Re: How far can you run in your 1 mile swim time? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Murphy'sLaw wrote:
MrRabbit wrote:
Murphy'sLaw wrote:
fruit thief wrote:
DieselPete wrote:
Posts above that say it should be 4:1 or “you suck at something” are missing something. If a guy can bang out a 16:00 mile in the water are we to think he should run four straight 4:00 miles? (Obviously impossible)


That guy is a swimmer, not a triathlete.

How fast can Mo Farah swim 1500m?

Noone seems to be disputing that there are athletes out there who run 3 or 5 miles in the time it takes them to swim 1. Just that they won't be winning any triathlons.


And yet - I’m one of those people who is at the 5/1 ratio, and I have won numerous triathlons.

(Mostly sprints, but I also managed 3rd OA at SOS Cape Cod, and SOS events are basically swim/run races with a bike warmup.)

/channeling my inner WaterFunBoy -
I’ve also been USAT AA for 12 straight years.
(Pretty sure 2019 will make it 13)

So, you were saying?.....


Doesn't mean you aren't giving up a ton in the water. I've won some sprints/Olys and OA top 10s at IMs & 70.3s. My swim is weak and it keeps me from winning bigger races, yours does too by the sound of it.

And AA doesn't mean you are balanced and poised to do well against top end competition, I know from experience.


I am absolutely giving up a ton in the water.

And I never once claimed I was “balanced”.

My point was to disprove the blanket statement that “you can’t win a triathlon” if that swim/run ratio is that far out of whack.
Which I did.

Josh Beck is my spirit animal.
He has beaten many Pro triathletes at the IM & HIM distances, in spite of (somehow) being an even worse swimmer than I am.


I don't think you are at 5:1 unless we count your 1:39 Kona swim. You have done 35 min 1.2 mile swims which would be 28 min for 1 mile albeit with wetsuit. You would need to run five miles at 5:36 pace which I am not sure you can do

OK, so maybe 5:1 is a slight stretch, or maybe it isn't.

But as you mentioned, those "fast" swims I did were in a wetsuit, and the other BIG thing is - on good feet the majority of the way.
There is NFW I can swim that fast solo, sans wettie.

The running equivalent would be a net-downhill course with a tailwind the whole way.

I did an OW swim this summer (actually did a bunch of them) and swam what they call 1.1 miles in 35 minutes as my au-naturel PB.
(I believe it's really closer to 1 mile flat, rather than the claimed 1.1m, and my GPS typically confirmed that distance, but that's splitting hairs)
https://www.strava.com/activities/2489486341

Here's the same swim, this one was with small hand paddles (cheater!!)
https://www.strava.com/activities/2514306897

vs.

Anyway, based on that current ~1m swim time, vs running -
you can be sure I can still bang out 5M in well under 35 mins:
https://www.strava.com/activities/2286665378


float , hammer , and jog

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