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Trail Marathon pace?
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We have this nice little trail marathon that will be going for 5th year this October. Probably less than 50 people but it is gaining momentum.

I did it last year and totally blew up. I didn't have running watch and had no idea about HR and pace. I led up until mile 20 which coincided with turn around spot way the hell back this valley. I was alone and bonking and didn't know how far to turn around. so tired.

I got passed right at turn around and then fell to 4th at the finish. Major hamstring cramps at mile 25. Didn't drink enough water.

My time was 4:20 which is basically 10 min/mile. The winner was 4:08. Course record from certified fast guy is 3:56. Technical trail with about 2000 ft climb throughout.

I think I could break 4:00 this year. Best reference of my fitness is 1:19 HM.

I've been out cruising sections of trails and it is surprisingly hard to hold a 9:30 pace over about 75% of trail.

My question: On the flat fast sections of trail and a little bit of pavement should I up the pace to something like 6:30- 7 min/mile to buy time for slow sections or should I just steady 9:15min/mile through out?
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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a trail race is one in which i would rely exclusively on perceived rate of exertion and pay absolutely zero attention to pace.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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Not that I have a lot of experience. Basically anytime you surge with biking or swimming or running you burn matches. I would recommend using hr or rpe and not pace on trail runs. The terrain will greatly dictate the pace slow when steep fast when decline even when flat. I’d imagine trying to hold a steady pace would result in blowing up for most mortals.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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yes it is tricky because run paces in general are calibrated for basically flat pavement and associated perceived exertion. There are sections on this course where you are struggling to hit 11-12 min/mile. I guess you could go by HR, just want to avoid big HR spikes but have to compensate for super slow sections.

The again you could go hard in the hard sections and cruise control rest in the flat sections...
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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but you should have a good idea, through training, of how to roughly equate effort levels to durations that you can hold them. i would seriously just disregard pace as a metric. i've done a couple of trail races and don't even look at my watch. i just try to manage my effort level for the rough expected/hoped for duration of the race. so naturally that means slightly slower pace on the uphills to manage the effort level.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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"My question: On the flat fast sections of trail and a little bit of pavement should I up the pace to something like 6:30- 7 min/mile to buy time for slow sections?"

Yes

"or should I just steady 9:15min/mile through out?"

No because then they would flat slow sections
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [fruit thief] [ In reply to ]
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fruit thief wrote:
"My question: On the flat fast sections of trail and a little bit of pavement should I up the pace to something like 6:30- 7 min/mile to buy time for slow sections?"

Yes

"or should I just steady 9:15min/mile through out?"

No because then they would flat slow sections

This is what I’d do .. ramp up pace on the easy to run sections of the trail (including those with inclines) then deal with the bits that are much more technical when you’re there. The better you are at manoeuvring the technical sections of trail the faster you can be. I still can’t go down fast on uneven loose ground (and I find this to be more difficult than going on any uphills) cuz I have ankles that love to roll so I have to be super careful .. the more uphill running you practice the easier those bits will be and faster you can go on the trails ..

I don’t look at pace at all as each trail run is so different .. and so much fun :D Road races are of course much easier to predict and pace.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Or my favorite pace tactic is stick with the front pack and hang on as long as possible. It worked well last year in 3 HM I did but then you only have a couple miles of suffering after the 'wheels fall off.'

I'm my first HM ever last summer I told my self "What ever you do don't get in front of the Kenyans." (we have a few students on the university run team). What did I do? around mile 2 bumped in with three running abreast in the lead and started making small talk (that is another good tactic to make it sound easy). Feeling strong and dumb I led to mile 3 where they promptly dropped me on first hill.

I think that is what got me last year in trail marathon was I was over confidant and jumped to the front at mile .5 and then ran scared into complete bonk mode.

So to answer my own question: don't jump to the front, pace off the other guys. Which is opposite of general advice to run your own race... lol

Sorry I don't have many running friends IRL so you guys get my random running ruminations.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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Also what do you do about hydration? That might be one of the causes of bonking .. at marathon distance you’ll need to have a good hydration strategy ... do you carry a pack or bottle or use the on course drinks?
Last edited by: snail: Sep 5, 19 20:33
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [snail] [ In reply to ]
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Good question! There was one aid station at mile 7 where I stashed a bottle of electro drink. Other then that I was planning on drinking from the streams but as mentioned I was too scared to to dawdle. I had a couple Clif chews but could barely choke down with no water. (I've been drinking all the stream water in the valley for 20 years to keep a tough gut. usually just a mouth full to keep cotton mouth at bay. Girardia be damned!)

This year in my internet researching I see all these Western State guys running with little hand held bottles. At first I thought it would be annoying but I just got one last week and quickly learned to love it! I start with it empty with dry electro powder. Fill up at known streams along the way and keep empty for sections I don't want to carry the weight.

I did a 15 miler the other day and made it home without the normal parched feeling, it was weird.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve got a 500ml soft flask that I take with me everywhere and it’s helped a lot in terms of feeling much stronger .. I’d test your hydration strategy on your training runs (not on race day of course..) .. Planning on when you should refill, how much you need, what helps if it’s water only or electrolyte drink.. I see a lot of ppl using hydration packs or vests but I’d rather run nekkid than run with extra weight on my back.

I also can’t take gels without water, it just gets stuck in my throat (and I tested peanut butter recently ... very bad idea!!!)
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [snail] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I can't stand the running vest bouncing around. Restricts breathing, holds sweat. Works good for more 'mountain climbing/running' applications.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
a trail race is one in which i would rely exclusively on perceived rate of exertion and pay absolutely zero attention to pace.

First reply and best reply.

It's time for you to learn how to race and run trails, not just read numbers.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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JYoung wrote:
My time was 4:20 which is basically 10 min/mile. The winner was 4:08. Course record from certified fast guy is 3:56. Technical trail with about 2000 ft climb throughout.

I think I could break 4:00 this year. Best reference of my fitness is 1:19 HM.

4:00 is a fairly slow for a trail marathon with only 2000' of elevation for a sub 1:20 half marathoner.

That really does sound like a fairly technical trail. All the more reason to forget about sticking to particular paces.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [snail] [ In reply to ]
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snail wrote:
Also what do you do about hydration? That might be one of the causes of bonking .. at marathon distance you’ll need to have a good hydration strategy ... do you carry a pack or bottle or use the on course drinks?

Camelbak

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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The more trail running you can do the better you will get at it. It is a completely different beast then road running where you can just zone out and run. Depending on the trail you almost have to watch every step or the minute you don’t, WAM, and your on the ground.

If you are doing the same race and if conditions are the same..a big if...you kind of know the paces you need to go in different sections to hit the time you want. Uphills will be slower, flats will be faster. You aren’t really ‘upping’ the pace. That just happens naturally given the same effort. Also some people are just better climbers. Weight to strength/conditioning/experience ratio is huge.

Hydration depends on conditions. A cool fall race may require little hydration that you can get at aid stations. This also depends on how many aid stations there are as well. There are some lightweight running packs or handheld running bottles. I don’t like wearing a pack and use the Salomon Sense Hydro S-Lab Handheld Hydration Set and a fuel belt race belt to carry nutrition or the soft flask when not using it.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [H2Owings] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the insights, just gotta keep going out and think ‘quick feet, quick feet’ !
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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JYoung wrote:
Yeah I can't stand the running vest bouncing around. Restricts breathing, holds sweat. Works good for more 'mountain climbing/running' applications.

Oh my goodness. You've never tried a *good* running vest, then. The ultra lightweight stuff like from Ultimate Direction is pretty great. I'm a big guy and I sweat a lot and I live in NC where we have pretty heinous humidity. Which means on most summer runs I'm fully soaked within 45 minutes (like my feet are squishing, even). It's so bad that in the summer for shorter runs I'm either shirtless or I can only run in the cheaper shirts given out at races because they are shorter AND thinner than what you can buy in terms of dry-fit and a normal dry-fit shirt can chafe the crap out of me in an hour due to the weight of sweat and bouncing.

But when I add a hydration vest? No chafing whatsoever. A good fitting one won't move and won't restrict breathing. I thought I'd *hate* it at first, but when you start training past 2 hours on trail you don't have much choice...at least around here I don't have water available on trail, and the race I'm training for won't have water available just anywhere. I've had as much as 3L on my back with no trouble. And most allow for a big bladder on your back and smaller soft bottles on the front, which is really nice because you can do nutrition on the front and just water on the back if you want (my normal preference).

I'd also say the other posters are right who are basically trying to say you need to learn how to race on perceived exertion. You've basically ignored that in favor of hoping the other guys know what they are doing and trying to copy them. That might be just enough to let you win (depending on whether the same people show up), but it sure as heck won't be what leads to your best possible time.


--Donnie
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [djb_rh] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough and to be honest I have a vest that is half decent but only time I ever used it , it was fully loaded with a bunch of mandatory bullshit like bear spray , compass, hat , gloves , med kit etc for this extreme tri event I participated in.

I should take it out with bare minimum , just might like it!
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [Slowlocomotion] [ In reply to ]
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Slowlocomotion wrote:
Not that I have a lot of experience. Basically anytime you surge with biking or swimming or running you burn matches. I would recommend using hr or rpe and not pace on trail runs. The terrain will greatly dictate the pace slow when steep fast when decline even when flat. I’d imagine trying to hold a steady pace would result in blowing up for most mortals.

agreed that trying to run by pace is a mistake. just, my wife used to beat a lot of women in trail races who would beat her in road races. it wasn't b/c she's good at technical stuff, though - it was b/c she was really good at the uneven paces and "match burning" involved in trail races. somehow it doesn't phase her.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [Bob Loblaw] [ In reply to ]
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Did my race yesterday, sitting here looking at my data, drinking coffee. Life is good...

Oh it turns out the course has almost 3500 ft gain.

I found my self right at the front from the get go along with another guy. We plodded along side by side chatting about trail sections and tactics etc. Though we were out front I felt better that this guy was with me , though he could have been some ex nordic olympian out for a cruise, we have a lot of those around here. We felt like we were pushing the pace and joking about who was gonna crash first.

At mile 8.5 there is a turnaround where we could see the competitors. I was expecting a good 4-5 min gap but no, it was a mere 1 min. #3 and 4 was a couple of top notch mountain running women out for the kill and I suspected I was on the menu...


Mile splits:

1) 8:14
2) 7:56
3) 8:29
4) 8:19
5) 7:51
6) 7:59
7) 8:31
8) 8:40

Picked up the perceived pace a bit and made haste for the next turnaround at mile 12 where we saw we had 3 minutes up on the 3 and 4. # 5,6,7,8 were all in close proximity as well.

9) 8:03
10) 8:16
11) 8:20
12) 10:27

Mile 12 was slow as we had to climb back out of a gorge and this is where my number 2 shadow made his move and jetted up the mile long climb and dropped me hard.

13) 7:51
14) 8:47
15) 7:41
16) 9:05

Mile 13-15 were fast down hill back into town. I could see #1 about a minute up on long straightaway but of course now my legs were feeling it as we approached the biggest climb section of the day.

17) 14:57
18) 17:46
19) 10:16
20) 10:57
21) 12:35

You can see by the numbers that things slowed way down. Combo of steep muddy gnar and me battling the bonk. The 2 ladies passed me easily at mile 18 while I wallowed in misery. Contemplating why I do this . Am I gonna barf?

Up until this point I had been using mantra from one of my favorite youtube run specific guys, Seth James Demoor (check him out!). "Eyes up, pump arms, quick feet"

It was not working any more.

I took my time and drank from every stream I came across knowing that there was 5 or 6 people right behind me. Sure enough guy passes me fast at mile 21.

I know that the flat pavement/ gravel section was coming and I was going to have to lay down some heat to break 4 hours.
I came to the bike path split and I wanted to be there at 3:20 and it was 3:23!! Holy shit I'm on track for my race plan.

I chugged one last Gu and started rolling on the flats feeling half decent.

I was in 5th and could see 4th about 1/4 mile up.
We dropped back into trees and I came up with new mantra that seemed to work

"Im grateful for my health. Im grateful for my family. I'm grateful for being able to even do this"
And the pain seemed to melt away and I started feeling all emotional...

22) 9:12
23) 8:40
24) 8:53
25) 8:19.
...

I popped out of the woods for last mile and there was #4 guy going slow. I snuck up on him and asked if we were gonna have to sprint to the finish and he laughed and said no and congratulated me on solid bonk recovery. lol

I pushed up the long uphill to the finish. In the distance I could see me wife and daughters sitting there cheering as I chugged along. It actually almost brought a tear to my eye, that funny swelling of emotion that can only come from hard endurance exertion.

Lo and behold, I crossed the finish at 3:59:30 with over all average of 9:26! 4th place same as last year. But I was 20 minutes faster and felt better over all.

So even though I had a bad stretch in there (which I suspect is the nature of the beast) I managed a perfect execution of race strategy. Now I get to take a few weeks off after a long summer race schedule.
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Re: Trail Marathon pace? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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Well done on achieving your goal! Did you pace each km (or mile) so that you’d finish under 4hrs? Any changes to your race strategy that helped? Do go on and share your tips please.

Great race report btw :)
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