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Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve
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Many news headlines are shouting "Yield Curve inversion! Recession Imminent! Iceberg Dead Ahead!"

In some of my prior posts I've provided a sketch of the global geopolitical and economic order and the related financial architecture and explained the United States' outsize and central role in the global system. I've also hinted at how the end of globalization and the decline of global trade is disrupting.... everything. In the context of all of this I've wondered to myself "How on earth is it that the Fed can tighten when everyone else in the world is either on hold or actively easing? How is it that the disconnect in policy isn't affecting U.S. capital markets?"

Well, I'm not alone in that. Below is a short interview with Mohamed El-Erian.

Key words: "the bond markets are distorted"

Along similar lines, consider the below charts.



Ponder that last chart. Of all of the investment grade interest payments being made globally, the U.S. is responsible for 94%. That's completely unprecedented. That is an enormous... mind boggling distortion. In effect, if you need to invest in investment grade bonds (high quality for those who don't know) and you need to actually invest at a positive return (seems like a good idea to me!) your only choice at this point is to invest in the U.S. How on earth would such a setup not distort our capital markets?

The four most dangerous words in investing are:

This. Time. Is. Different.

However, this time I suspect we're looking at something very different indeed. Globally you have some really unprecedented demographic distortions: Europe, Japan, China, Taiwan, South Korea.... that's a huge chunk of the global economy




A former professor of mine recently noted that the decline in births in Europe between 1985 and 1995 only has a single historical parallel: the Black Death. There will be economic consequences.

Those population pyramids paint a very clear picture for the currencies and bond markets of those countries: their central banks will be forced to drive rates to zero or below for a generation and do whatever they can to devalue their currency in the process. Their respective governments will have to fall back on infrastructure investment to stabilize their economies even though they both lack the young workers and any significant need for infrastructure (as opposed to India which would reap significant economic benefits considering that fewer than 47% of their roads of paved and they only have ~1,000km of paved, multi-lane highways). Without access to foreign markets that can afford their goods (cough... the U.S... cough) the domestic manufacturing of the aforementioned countries will collapse as they cannot possibly consume their own domestic output.

Below is the U.S. which has a relatively healthy population pyramid. In fact, this is a population pyramid that can both consume its domestic production and produce excess capital.


In light of how overvalued U.S. equity markets are by traditional measures, I'm very reticent to say that things could carry on apace for a while longer. But they might. We're just now beginning to feel the effects of events that were set in motion over thirty years ago.
Last edited by: GreenPlease: Aug 16, 19 19:29
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Very interesting stuff. Now with this in mind, what would your recommendation be for a passive investor who's basically stuck to a Boglehead approach of of indexes and asset allocation - specifically around the ~25-35% allocated to international stock. If the EU and Japan are tanking does it make sense to maybe pull back there, if so what would you do to reallocate?

Interesting times we live in right now. Volatility means opportunity if you're smart enough to catch on, problem is I'm not...
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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The one thing I can say with confidence is to walk from foreign investments:
  • Europe: basket case, major downside exposure to de-globalization
  • China: incipient fraud (in the words of Anne Stevenson "I'm yet to see a Chinese company without serious material fraud"), serious domestic challenges including an off-the-rails financial system, major exposure to de-globalization.
  • Japan: significant demographic problems, major downside exposure to de-globalization
  • Korea: significant demographic problems, major downside exposure to de-globalization
  • India: seems increasingly likely they'll get into a war with Pakistan because they believe they can win, structural/cultural problem with corruption
  • Africa: always has been and always will be poor (nothing to do with race)
  • Argentina: non-functional government or financial system. Likely to be permanently locked out of global capital markets for a decade or more

There are some EM bright spots. The U.S. will pivot to other SE Asian nations and, for geopolitical reasons, China will have to open up its markets to those nations as well.
  • Indonesia: populous and resource rich but island nature reduces economies of scale and network effects for infrastructure making development stubbornly expensive.
  • Vietnam: kind of like a smaller version of China circa 1980
  • Thailand: not a lot for me to say here other than the fact that Thailand produced the most new billionaires in 2018, a sign of shifting global supply chains.
  • Malaysia: shockingly strong IP laws
  • Singapore: a very valuable parcel of real estate on account of its location.
  • Brazil: lots of potential but the government seems to swing between functional and non-functional. A friend of mine from Argentina once told me that Brazilians are infamous for getting a project 80% complete and then going on an extended vacation.
  • Mexico: huge potential with its labor force but major issues with investing as an outsider.

Unless you really know what you're doing in the EM bright spots I mentioned, on a risk/reward balance I'd advise most people to stick to the U.S. for the foreseeable future. In terms of asset allocations within the U.S. I'm afraid I'm not much help to the mainstream investor. What I do personally I wouldn't recommend to a passive, less-knowledgeable individual.
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I read an article that basically said the demand for US long term bonds was so high that the only way to keep up was to decrease the interest rates on them, just a supply/demand response. And a strong demand for your bonds is the exact opposite of a financial crisis or a sign of economic frailty.

But the media and the rest of the anti-Trumpers WANT a recession so the chicken little response was exaggerated in the reporting of the inversion.

TIFWIW.
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Why will Africa always be poor?
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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My personal feeling on this inversion, is that this one is different. When they look at historical times when this happened, the world was not so connected. There is so much foreign money coming in to our long bonds now, the pressure to lower their rates is just too strong. It may be a bit simplistic and not as detailed as you laid out, but the fact that we are doing so well as compared to the rest of the world, is the reason for the yields we are seeing today.

On top of all that, mortgage interest rates may very well hit new records in the near future, starting another strong cycle on home sales and building. There was a shortage after all before this latest drop, and it was slowing down in a lot of the hottest areas. This may be the jump to get it back going again, and housing is a huge factor in our economy..

Is it all just buying more time on one of the longest bull runs ever? Probably, but buying time is the nature of the beast, nothing runs forever, and times are a changing!!

Also in the past I believe that unemployment was a co factor in determining an imminent recession with the inversion. We dont have that, in fact are as far from that as one could get, near record low unemployment right now, with no real threats in the near term..So there is that too...

But there is Trump, and he could sink this whole thing single handily with his tariffs and rhetoric. But it is not in his self interest(forget about what the country needs), so I trust he will do what is best for him, which will be best for the markets and economy at large. He has already walked back the last rough of tariffs, now that he knows that China will absolutely suffer more and longer than us to win this latest spat..That would not be good timing on the next election for him, thus has bought this run a couple years at the very least..
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
My personal feeling on this inversion, is that this one is different. When they look at historical times when this happened, the world was not so connected. There is so much foreign money coming in to our long bonds now, the pressure to lower their rates is just too strong. It may be a bit simplistic and not as detailed as you laid out, but the fact that we are doing so well as compared to the rest of the world, is the reason for the yields we are seeing today.

On top of all that, mortgage interest rates may very well hit new records in the near future, starting another strong cycle on home sales and building. There was a shortage after all before this latest drop, and it was slowing down in a lot of the hottest areas. This may be the jump to get it back going again, and housing is a huge factor in our economy..

Is it all just buying more time on one of the longest bull runs ever? Probably, but buying time is the nature of the beast, nothing runs forever, and times are a changing!!

Also in the past I believe that unemployment was a co factor in determining an imminent recession with the inversion. We dont have that, in fact are as far from that as one could get, near record low unemployment right now, with no real threats in the near term..So there is that too...

But there is Trump, and he could sink this whole thing single handily with his tariffs and rhetoric. But it is not in his self interest(forget about what the country needs), so I trust he will do what is best for him, which will be best for the markets and economy at large. He has already walked back the last rough of tariffs, now that he knows that China will absolutely suffer more and longer than us to win this latest spat..That would not be good timing on the next election for him, thus has bought this run a couple years at the very least..

In a strange way your logic makes sense. Trump is all about himself. I believe that he defines himself by the market. Therefore he cannot afford for the US to take much of a downturn before a deal gets done with China. Govt. by ego?

"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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I learned early on in poker, that you need to guess what someone will do, not what they should or ought to do. Without commenting on the man in charge, or the quality of his decisions, I have to bet and react on what I think he is going to do. It's entirely a feeling using intuition, with some historical facts of what has gone before to base that guess on..

So not a complaint of what choices are made, just making a bet that certain ones will likely be made..
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
I've also hinted at how the end of globalization and the decline of global trade is disrupting.... everything.


You state that like it's a fact. But it's not. Global trade hasn't declined. The growth has slowed a bit.





But it'd take a lot more than slowed growth to reverse the long-term trend:



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In light of how overvalued U.S. equity markets are by traditional measures,
The most traditional is PE ratio. The current S&P 500 PE ratio isn't out of control by historical standards. It's higher than average, but certainly not dot-com bubble high or real-estate bubble high. Might be due for a correction, but if just using these metrics, not exactly pearl-clutching values.


Last edited by: trail: Aug 17, 19 18:15
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Were PE rations of the S&P really over 65 like that chart says?? I dont recall that at all, or am I looking at it wrong?
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Were PE rations of the S&P really over 65 like that chart says?? I dont recall that at all, or am I looking at it wrong?

I just checked and yeah, must have been due to earnings plummeting.

Equities appear overpriced, but where else will money go? If not US public then US private markets.
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
Why will Africa always be poor?

Lack of stable governments is one good reason. Look how Ghana, Zimbabwe, Uganda, etc. were run into the ground.
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
Why will Africa always be poor?

Lack of stable governments is one good reason. Look how Ghana, Zimbabwe, Uganda, etc. were run into the ground.

Bad culture. Change the culture change the outcome. They don’t have to always be poor

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [len] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder about this. I've been across India, se Asia, Indonesia, China but not to Africa. I wonder what the differences are
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Don’t know why but Africa seems to be very tribal

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:

Bad culture. Change the culture change the outcome. They don’t have to always be poor

I wouldn't say bad culture. Just a culture not conducive to economic success in the Westernized global economy. Need to embrace Western education, medicine, workforce efficiencies and consumerism, etc.

I would say the governments often have a genuinely bad culture. Those governments often have people who are educated and prepared to handle the global economy, but instead use it for short-term personal gain rather than the long-term benefit of "the people."
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
Don’t know why but Africa seems to be very tribal

We seem to be increasingly tribal....
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
Why will Africa always be poor?


Lack of stable governments is one good reason. Look how Ghana, Zimbabwe, Uganda, etc. were run into the ground.

Add Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda, Chad, Ethiopia, Somalia, Nigeria, Congo, Angola, Libya ... I think the list of stable and fully functioning governments is shorter than those who are either actively in or adjacent to civil war/unrest.

It doesn't have to be that way and it doesn't have to "always" be that way. But for our purposes it will always be that way. I don't think it will solve itself in the lifetime of anyone currently alive. The sort of unrest they have quickly spills over into adjacent countries.

Someone mentioned the tribal nature, and I believe that is one of the root causes when coupled with European colonialism and how borders were drawn during and after that. These weren't nations that formed on their own due to ethnic identity or even through conquest. We see a lot of the same issues in the Middle East. Borders were drawn and countries formed by people sitting in Europe. There is no national identity. And our concept of ethnic and racial tensions aren't in the same universe as what they experience.

I just don't see how this gets solved in the short or medium term. It would take either a complete reformation of countries and complete change in how people identify themselves.

Oh, and Europe, China, US, and Russia would have to stop mucking around in there. HAH! Like that is going to happen.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
Why will Africa always be poor?


Lack of stable governments is one good reason. Look how Ghana, Zimbabwe, Uganda, etc. were run into the ground.


Add Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda, Chad, Ethiopia, Somalia, Nigeria, Congo, Angola, Libya ... I think the list of stable and fully functioning governments is shorter than those who are either actively in or adjacent to civil war/unrest.

It doesn't have to be that way and it doesn't have to "always" be that way. But for our purposes it will always be that way. I don't think it will solve itself in the lifetime of anyone currently alive. The sort of unrest they have quickly spills over into adjacent countries.

Someone mentioned the tribal nature, and I believe that is one of the root causes when coupled with European colonialism and how borders were drawn during and after that. These weren't nations that formed on their own due to ethnic identity or even through conquest. We see a lot of the same issues in the Middle East. Borders were drawn and countries formed by people sitting in Europe. There is no national identity. And our concept of ethnic and racial tensions aren't in the same universe as what they experience.

I just don't see how this gets solved in the short or medium term. It would take either a complete reformation of countries and complete change in how people identify themselves.

Oh, and Europe, China, US, and Russia would have to stop mucking around in there. HAH! Like that is going to happen.

Agreed 100%.
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [trail] [ In reply to ]
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A couple of obvious, but relevant points about P/E ratios...

1.) We should expect higher P/E rations -- ceteris peribus -- when we have lower interest rate levels. Discounted future cashflows are getting discounted less under that environment meaning higher implied stock prices.

2.) All it takes to radically change a P/E ratio is next quarter's earnings.
Last edited by: SH: Aug 18, 19 17:56
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [Kcny01] [ In reply to ]
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I just checked and yeah, must have been due to earnings plummeting.//

So I just had a look, and wow! 08 PE ratios go from 21, to 71 in 09, then back to 21 in '10. Nothing even close to that. Earnings had to plummet by 60+% it looks like? So being at a little one 20 now does not seem so historically bad. On the higher end, but by no means a ceiling to further expansion. I really dont care too much at this point, but would be nice not to go too far forward, just makes the landing much harder on the other side...
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
2.) All it takes to radically change a P/E ratio is next quarter's earnings.

Well in theory wouldn't that be short-lived, as we'd expect prices and earnings to be highly correlated. E.g. if earnings are down 10%, the price is going to go down some % some very short time after that. Of course lots of other factors go into PE ratios, and your first comment was on point there.
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
SH wrote:

2.) All it takes to radically change a P/E ratio is next quarter's earnings.


Well in theory wouldn't that be short-lived, as we'd expect prices and earnings to be highly correlated. E.g. if earnings are down 10%, the price is going to go down some % some very short time after that. Of course lots of other factors go into PE ratios, and your first comment was on point there.


Well, in theory it might be short lived, but we'd generally not expect it to be short lived, for two reasons...

1.) In a P/E calculation the P is pretty much running real time while the E is only updated at quarterly intervals. This allows the P/E ratio to get out ahead of itself with regards to any given E provided months ago.
2.) In a P/E calculation when the current E is out of line with the generally expected future E's then we should expect to see some "regression to the mean" for the size of the P/E ratio. For example, in the case that Amazon earnings should skyrocket the stock would be unlikely to maintain its astronomical P/E ratio (because the current earnings are coming into line with the expectedly high future E potential.) The new high earnings wouldn't be expected to grow as much as the old low earnings. (Of course all this could be different within any specific story, so I'm speaking generally.)
Last edited by: SH: Aug 19, 19 7:54
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Re: Maybe This Time is Different: The Yield Curve [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Robotics and technology, especially in Japan and Germany, will delay the gloomy predictions on your demographic charts.

As for P/E, it's a very poor predictor of one year price returns. Cyclical P/E is okay on predicting 10 year prospective returns but that can be picked apart as well.
Last edited by: summitt: Aug 19, 19 10:29
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