Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [spudone] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 11:43

Post #26 of 42 (1121 views)

spudone wrote:

j p o wrote:

JSA wrote:

I remember that well. Dad was in the FBI and had complained, for years, about how they and local police were rapidly becoming out-gunned. Shortly thereafter, AR and/or M16 variants began to be issued to certain federal and local law enforcement personnel

That was nuts. Were those guys wearing head to toe armor? I don't remember seeing any follow up on what they had but I remember seeing that and you could tell they were taking a lot of hits but not going down. I always wondered how they weren't getting their legs taken out.

The SWAT team did shoot under vehicles at their legs - that's how one of the gunmen eventually died from blood loss.

Yeah, I just read through the wiki on it. It seems they were more interested in being bank robbers than getting money. They got away with $1.5 mil just a couple years before the final shootout.

I always thought they looked like they had that planned like that. But reading through that, their plan just went to shit so they tried to shoot their way out.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [j p o] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 11:55

Post #27 of 42 (1097 views)

j p o wrote:

JSA wrote:

I remember that well. Dad was in the FBI and had complained, for years, about how they and local police were rapidly becoming out-gunned. Shortly thereafter, AR and/or M16 variants began to be issued to certain federal and local law enforcement personnel

That was nuts. Were those guys wearing head to toe armor? I don't remember seeing any follow up on what they had but I remember seeing that and you could tell they were taking a lot of hits but not going down. I always wondered how they weren't getting their legs taken out.

Very close. They had body armor on their legs. SWAT team started shooting at their ankles to bring them down and try to bleed them out.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 12:20

Post #28 of 42 (1072 views)

The GMAN wrote:

I assume you meant Dayton and not Toledo.

He was wearing a vest that only stops pistol rounds from what I can tell. Armor that stops rifle rounds is hard to acquire for civilians, very expensive, and very heavy. I’ve seen a couple of videos. One of the officers had a M4 or AR15 rifle. He was the cop closest to the shooter with a tactical light on his rifle. That ammo will pierce that type of body armor like a hot knife through butter.

Expensive is relative, but it's not hard to acquire - unless its locally illegal. There are any number of companies that offer Level IV body armor to civilians. L IV is rated to stop 30 cal armor piercing rifle rounds and has no problem stopping multiple .223 lead bullets moving @ 3100 fps. Even L III will stop multiple M80 rounds.

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [gotsand] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 12:28

Post #29 of 42 (1056 views)

gotsand wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

I assume you meant Dayton and not Toledo.

He was wearing a vest that only stops pistol rounds from what I can tell. Armor that stops rifle rounds is hard to acquire for civilians, very expensive, and very heavy. I’ve seen a couple of videos. One of the officers had a M4 or AR15 rifle. He was the cop closest to the shooter with a tactical light on his rifle. That ammo will pierce that type of body armor like a hot knife through butter.

Expensive is relative, but it's not hard to acquire - unless its locally illegal. There are any number of companies that offer Level IV body armor to civilians. L IV is rated to stop 30 cal armor piercing rifle rounds and has no problem stopping multiple .223 lead bullets moving @ 3100 fps. Even L III will stop multiple M80 rounds.

Allegedly ... ;-)

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 12:34

Post #30 of 42 (1047 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

I assume you meant Dayton and not Toledo.

He was wearing a vest that only stops pistol rounds from what I can tell. Armor that stops rifle rounds is hard to acquire for civilians, very expensive, and very heavy. I’ve seen a couple of videos. One of the officers had a M4 or AR15 rifle. He was the cop closest to the shooter with a tactical light on his rifle. That ammo will pierce that type of body armor like a hot knife through butter.

I'll explain the joke on BleP's behalf. The president said it was in Toledo.....

Toledo, Michigan.

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [gotsand] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 12:35

Post #31 of 42 (1044 views)

gotsand wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

I assume you meant Dayton and not Toledo.

He was wearing a vest that only stops pistol rounds from what I can tell. Armor that stops rifle rounds is hard to acquire for civilians, very expensive, and very heavy. I’ve seen a couple of videos. One of the officers had a M4 or AR15 rifle. He was the cop closest to the shooter with a tactical light on his rifle. That ammo will pierce that type of body armor like a hot knife through butter.

Expensive is relative, but it's not hard to acquire - unless its locally illegal. There are any number of companies that offer Level IV body armor to civilians. L IV is rated to stop 30 cal armor piercing rifle rounds and has no problem stopping multiple .223 lead bullets moving @ 3100 fps. Even L III will stop multiple M80 rounds.

Yeah, but does it knock you to the ground? You do feel the impact right?

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [Uncle Arqyle] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 12:41

Post #32 of 42 (1028 views)

Uncle Arqyle wrote:

gotsand wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

I assume you meant Dayton and not Toledo.

He was wearing a vest that only stops pistol rounds from what I can tell. Armor that stops rifle rounds is hard to acquire for civilians, very expensive, and very heavy. I’ve seen a couple of videos. One of the officers had a M4 or AR15 rifle. He was the cop closest to the shooter with a tactical light on his rifle. That ammo will pierce that type of body armor like a hot knife through butter.

Expensive is relative, but it's not hard to acquire - unless its locally illegal. There are any number of companies that offer Level IV body armor to civilians. L IV is rated to stop 30 cal armor piercing rifle rounds and has no problem stopping multiple .223 lead bullets moving @ 3100 fps. Even L III will stop multiple M80 rounds.

Yeah, but does it knock you to the ground? You do feel the impact right?

I've never been hit. But, some friends have. One of my Army buddies was hit wearing level 4 body armor (plates) with what he thought was a 7.62 round from an AK. He said he felt a vibration and heard the "ding!" But, it didn't hurt. One of my dad's fellow agents was hit with a 9 mm in the chest wearing level 2 concealed vest. He said it felt like getting hit with a sledgehammer and suffered a broken rib.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [JSA] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 12:43

Post #33 of 42 (1021 views)

Saw a report that they picked up something like 38 .45 casings and one shotgun shell, so the police really let him have it. I'm amazed the police in El Paso didn't do the same, that had to have taken a lot of restraint.

I miss YaHey

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [Justgeorge] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 12:59

Post #34 of 42 (998 views)

Justgeorge wrote:

Saw a report that they picked up something like 38 .45 casings and one shotgun shell, so the police really let him have it. I'm amazed the police in El Paso didn't do the same, that had to have taken a lot of restraint.

.45s? Interesting! According to the Dayton PD website, the Department provides "two Glock handguns." Does not mention caliber, so, I assume the officer gets to choose. I know more and more police departments are permitting the carry of .45s now that double-stacks are more available. The Glock 21, for example, holds 13 rounds.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [Justgeorge] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 13:04

Post #35 of 42 (988 views)

Justgeorge wrote:

Saw a report that they picked up something like 38 .45 casings and one shotgun shell, so the police really let him have it. I'm amazed the police in El Paso didn't do the same, that had to have taken a lot of restraint.

What stopped them?

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 13:06

Post #36 of 42 (984 views)

ThisIsIt wrote:

Justgeorge wrote:

Saw a report that they picked up something like 38 .45 casings and one shotgun shell, so the police really let him have it. I'm amazed the police in El Paso didn't do the same, that had to have taken a lot of restraint.

What stopped them?

He put his hands up and surrendered. And failed to live up to his manifesto by surrendering.

Suffer Well.

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [jmh] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 13:23

Post #37 of 42 (953 views)

jmh wrote:

ThisIsIt wrote:

Justgeorge wrote:

Saw a report that they picked up something like 38 .45 casings and one shotgun shell, so the police really let him have it. I'm amazed the police in El Paso didn't do the same, that had to have taken a lot of restraint.

What stopped them?

He put his hands up and surrendered. And failed to live up to his manifesto by surrendering.

According to twitter he was white. That's why they didn't shoot him.

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [jmh] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 13:29

Post #38 of 42 (946 views)

jmh wrote:

ThisIsIt wrote:

Justgeorge wrote:

Saw a report that they picked up something like 38 .45 casings and one shotgun shell, so the police really let him have it. I'm amazed the police in El Paso didn't do the same, that had to have taken a lot of restraint.

What stopped them?

He put his hands up and surrendered. And failed to live up to his manifesto by surrendering.

Thanks, I don't think it's all that surprising then that he wasn't gunned down in a hail of bullets like the guy in Dayton. Seems like two entirely different situations.

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [svennn] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 13:31

Post #39 of 42 (936 views)

Quote:

According to twitter he was white. That's why they didn't shoot him.

According to twitter it was the same guy in Gilroy, El Paso and Dayton.

Suffer Well.

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [spudone] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 13:32

Post #40 of 42 (933 views)

spudone wrote:

j p o wrote:

JSA wrote:

I remember that well. Dad was in the FBI and had complained, for years, about how they and local police were rapidly becoming out-gunned. Shortly thereafter, AR and/or M16 variants began to be issued to certain federal and local law enforcement personnel

That was nuts. Were those guys wearing head to toe armor? I don't remember seeing any follow up on what they had but I remember seeing that and you could tell they were taking a lot of hits but not going down. I always wondered how they weren't getting their legs taken out.

The SWAT team did shoot under vehicles at their legs - that's how one of the gunmen eventually died from blood loss.

I watched the training video on that event when I was in LE, and saw the officer taking out the bad guy by shooting under the car, after he had been shot no less. The other perps were taken out by one of the officers who went into a gun store nearby and took one of the hunting rifles and ammo, their armor didn't let the 30.06 rounds go through all the time, but enough got through that all were effectively taken down as they tried to escape.

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [Uncle Arqyle] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 13:38

Post #41 of 42 (924 views)

Yes, that's a ton of kinetic energy being dumped over a pretty small area. I imagine it would smart pretty good.

Re: Explain the Toledo shooting to me [JSA] [ In reply to ]

Aug 6, 19 13:44

Post #42 of 42 (910 views)

Didn't think L-III was rated for AP rounds, only L-IV.

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