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Re: I feel some thoughts and prayers coming.. [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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No doubt that "mass shootings" are traumatic, emotional, tragic events. But in the context of the number of other killings (or even gun-related killings) they really don't even move the needle.

I think people who are detached from the killings (almost everyone) have a far easier time saying things don’t move a needle in terms of the number of killings but family members of the victims likely have a different response,

Even if the deaths prevented by a single change is statistically meaningless, why not try? Is it so difficult to try something, anything, to try and prevent even a single life?
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Re: I feel some thoughts and prayers coming.. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
JSA wrote:
Slowman wrote:
JSA wrote:
Slowman wrote:
ironmayb wrote:
The lack of class in this thread, starting with its title, and including most of the usual classless suspects here is stunning even for this place


you're right. on this day, let us all agree to soberly undertake the job of reducing gun violence, by doing what every other civilized country has done: reduce guns. stop worshipping guns. stop advocating for more guns. instead, advocate for fewer guns. what's your plan?


I've been thinking about your position regarding the marketing of firearms. I've been coming around (a little) to your way of thinking. And, I've been wondering where the hell you have been and why you haven't chimed in on the thread asking what is different that it was 20 years ago.

If I understand you correctly, your position has been that these firearms are being marketed as military weapons for military snipers and civilian wannabes. So, when the marketing makes out that little Civilian Joe can be a real-life member of Ghost Recon, how can we be surprised when that happens?

That takes me to my argument on first person shooter video games. If you believe your theory, then how is that any different than mine, in which I believe first person shooter games are desensitizing people and making it easier for them to live out Ghost Recon in real life?


I’m more worried about the faux mystique of tactical than the weapon itself. If we eradicated that, and made your weapon harder and slower to buy, and to sell, I’d take that as a compromise. If the NRA’s ads highlighted how much of a stupid fool you make of yourself when you play Johnny the sniper, then I’d say we’re all pulling in the same direction.


I don't recall you ever mentioning the NRA's ads. Do you think they project the same "faux mystique of tactical" as the manufacturer's ads? Can you give an example? I remember clearly the examples you gave from the manufacturer's websites and, as I mention above, you are starting to pull me to your way of thinking (a little) in that regard. But, I cannot recall the NRA doing the same. Or are you merely suggesting the NRA should take action to "counter" the manufacturer's ads?


for the purposes of this conversation the NRA stands as a proxy for the industry. i'd rather see the industry decry, rather than glorify, tactifools. that, rather than cold dead hands ads. if the industry's advocacy is, "they're coming for your guns," then i promise at some point they will come for your guns. if advocacy advocated for responsible gun ownership, the industry would make friends instead of enemies. how about the industry sponsor some interviews, as cautionary tales, with those who felt it a good idea at the time, but after a decade or two in supermax think the other fork in the road might've been the more prudent choice? how about interviews with people who know what they're talking about, and who say the most useful place for a gun (outside of the range, or when hunting) is in its holster.

Makes sense. Thank you for the explanation.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: I feel some thoughts and prayers coming.. [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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MOP_Mike wrote:
patentattorney wrote:
sure there are other ways to kill / injure a lot of people. 5 people died in the boston marathon.

60 people died in vegas, 50 in orlando, 32 at Vtech, 27 in sandy hook, 26 in sutherland springs, 22 at el paso, 17 in stoneman douglas. 9 killed at dayton etc.

It seems like these weapons are used to kill more people than bombs.

Sure. But, we're back at looking at the hazard of a mere 600 rifle murders in our population again. It's tragic and emotional, but (IMO) just statistically not worth the cost of eroding the 2nd amendment rights of millions of gun owners.

I'm gonna let you (and/or slowman) have the last word here, as these ideas have been debated here for as long as I can remember, and I've posted extensively on the subject over the years. The arguments get rehashed and become circular; nobody's opinion ever seems to change.

Cheers.

What if, at some point in the future, the majority of the population (and congress) wants to amend the constitution? Would you resist that?
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Re: I feel some thoughts and prayers coming.. [svennn] [ In reply to ]
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svennn wrote:
So wearing 5.11 gear is like wearing a cycling pro team kit out for a group ride?

My son was competing in a precision rimfire challenge a few weeks back and I saw a bunch of 5.11. Lot's of BDU's, no jeans, and few in shorts with knee pads. I'll stick with my Patagonia stuff in the future even though a 5.11 store just opened next to my office.

That's a bit different. If you are competing, you wear the competition kit. We're talking about heading down to the local range to pop off some rounds. My indoor range is full of "normal" guys wearing "normal" clothing. My outdoor range gets ... interesting. Guys in full kits, ammo vests, ammo belts, drop-leg holster with a sidearm that isn't going to be fired that day, etc.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: I feel some thoughts and prayers coming.. [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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MOP_Mike wrote:
Slowman wrote:

i think that's pretty much what i'm saying now. if the gun lobby keeps up as it is, the pendulum is going to swing the other way. if my binary choice is: gun afficionados, and gun makers, resist any kind of change, and things continue along the trajectory they are; alternatively that we repeal 2A and highly regulate guns; i'll take the latter. what i'd like is something in the middle. if the gun crowd AND the gun control crowd come together to fashion reasonable solutions (and, mind, the "gun crowd" pretty much agrees with the gun control crowd on a lot of stuff) then you won't see that pendulum swing in the other direction.


I pretty much agree with the bolded part above. But, if the gun control crowd want to see movement from the pro-gun crowd, the former will have to convince the latter that they're willing to give up their long-term goal of 2nd amendment repeal, or slippery slope/creeping erosion of gun rights in its stead. I doubt that is possible (both the convincing, and giving up the actual goals).

EDIT: FWIW, I'll add that I'd like to see the gun control crowd step back from opportunistic emotional sensationalization of these tragedies. IMO, legislation should be done on an actuarial cost/benefit basis; it shouldn't implement measures that merely assuage guilt, feel good, or "do something". (See my high-cap magazine post above for example.)

the gun control crowd can't talk about this right after a shooting. and the gun control crowd can't get any attention from the gun idolators in between shootings. so, when's a good time?

look, you're not going to change your posture. so the pendulum is going to swing the other way, and caravans of mexican transgender rapist fairies with rainbow slingshots are going to swarm your house, tie you down, and tickle you almost to death, while communist climate scientists boot up your grill with your guns inside. and your ammo.

that's the likeliest scenario. unless you show some reason here.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: I feel some thoughts and prayers coming.. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
MOP_Mike wrote:
Slowman wrote:

i think that's pretty much what i'm saying now. if the gun lobby keeps up as it is, the pendulum is going to swing the other way. if my binary choice is: gun afficionados, and gun makers, resist any kind of change, and things continue along the trajectory they are; alternatively that we repeal 2A and highly regulate guns; i'll take the latter. what i'd like is something in the middle. if the gun crowd AND the gun control crowd come together to fashion reasonable solutions (and, mind, the "gun crowd" pretty much agrees with the gun control crowd on a lot of stuff) then you won't see that pendulum swing in the other direction.


I pretty much agree with the bolded part above. But, if the gun control crowd want to see movement from the pro-gun crowd, the former will have to convince the latter that they're willing to give up their long-term goal of 2nd amendment repeal, or slippery slope/creeping erosion of gun rights in its stead. I doubt that is possible (both the convincing, and giving up the actual goals).

EDIT: FWIW, I'll add that I'd like to see the gun control crowd step back from opportunistic emotional sensationalization of these tragedies. IMO, legislation should be done on an actuarial cost/benefit basis; it shouldn't implement measures that merely assuage guilt, feel good, or "do something". (See my high-cap magazine post above for example.)


the gun control crowd can't talk about this right after a shooting. and the gun control crowd can't get any attention from the gun idolators in between shootings. so, when's a good time?

look, you're not going to change your posture. so the pendulum is going to swing the other way, and caravans of mexican transgender rapist fairies with rainbow slingshots are going to swarm your house, tie you down, and tickle you almost to death, while communist climate scientists boot up your grill with your guns inside. and your ammo.

that's the likeliest scenario. unless you show some reason here.

What about taco trucks? Gotta be taco trucks in this doomsday scenario.
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Re: I feel some thoughts and prayers coming.. [monty] [ In reply to ]
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BREAKING NEWS
A self-described white nationalist who fatally shot 23 people in El Paso in 2019 was sentenced to 90 consecutive life terms.

A self-described white nationalist who wrote that Hispanics were “invading” America before fatally shooting 23 people at a Walmart store in El Paso was sentenced on Friday to 90 consecutive life terms for his conviction on federal hate crimes charges.

For two days this week, relatives of victims confronted the gunman during an emotional hearing in federal court, where they called him a coward and described some of the gaping wounds caused by the AK-47-style rifle that he used in the shooting, which also left 22 people injured.

Several of the victims’ relatives had hoped the gunman, Patrick Crusius, would be sentenced to death. Texas prosecutors intend to seek the death penalty when the gunman is tried on murder charges in state court later this year. “Life sentence is not justice for you,” Luis Juarez Jr., who lost his father in the massacre, told the gunman.


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https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/us/el-paso-walmart-shooting-sentencing.html?unlocked_article_code=_sDDMp0kGoEdc5bZ9fPI7ZoEduNMwOiJbR7eSiuRjkpWe6Uf5YEt_gFsOEZ1VfvkxlOhpMpziYEJwpWQxiY-oeQS-VKZTs8JwPMs7J7D0nIB9tw3S48NMpkSr428iTHf1oks5mcsBnsZdjNt10Tvw2YA8S6k3LyQ-5nJHKN5LMGtsso1OXP80lWQ9xhcblq68HbXOcuqNwMWktdHYAqXK-NXw5v_e2JdhAzLM_lPeSDrXEv5yue3u44ADr8AaSAgxjRXIf_lDj87WxxNml_CyQZxvOvFKavv-vmIIQWfERQuR-4Ve7vD8kNynG0fp5ArWaCdccI9cSWRTJmAnSGY1oEAV5pwHCPE&smid=url-share

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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