Not going to use on your tri bike?

The tri bike is an entirely different equation to solve. It is an older rim brake Felt, so fast for its time. But I don't think I can fit anything wider than 25mm on that one. I will have to bump the tri bike up to a modern disc frame to accommodate sweet riding wheels there. The road bike is a bit of a impulse buy, so I may have to wait a bit for another impulse buy.

Its like information overload trying to sort through data on BRR, review sites, etc...

I am strictly MOP, so ultimate speed is prob not my priority. A minute here or there over an IM distance will not change my day, but at the same time don't want a total dog.

Think I'm kind of narrowed down to these (data from BRR). Any reason to specifically avoid any? They will be going on Bontrager RSL's with a 23mm internal rim width. The Conti's seem to have the lowest puncture score, which might rule them out for me.....but that said they seem to be the most popular still...




Continental Grand Prix 5000 S TR 28
28mm 265grams 34 puncture score 8.5 watts

Vittoria Corsa Pro TLR 28
28mm 273grams 46 puncture score 9.3 watts

Pirelli P Zero Race TLR SpeedCore 28
28mm 314grams 56 puncture score 10.9 watts

Schwalbe Pro One Aero TLE (Rear) 28
28mm 275grams 44 puncture score 11.5 watts

Specialized S-Works Turbo 2Bliss Ready T2/T5 28
28mm 298grams 66 puncture score 11.6 watts

Consider the Conti GP5000 AS TR 28s. Good rolling resistance at a 'low' psi & great puncture protection. These are NOT like the old Gatorskins.

Problems seating the TL tire (Conti GP 500 TT TR) on HED Vanquish RC8 Pro rear wheel

Background
After resisting to the tubeless trend (for ROAD use) for many years, on my new Tri Bike I decided to go for it; Going to disc brakes opened me to ‘embrace the latest tech’ and also I’ve had a few wheels recently that are setup w Latex tubes not holding air for a reason or another, including a scare on pre-race day at bike drop-off at a 70.3 last summer.
Anyway I decided to go for it and went all in, buying ~$600 worth of tires to setup both training and racing wheels for this bike, bought sealant, dynaplugs, etc. Read a lot of the tips here etc.

It’s cold here so no outdoor riding till the spring so I wanted to prepare everything but the sealant, mounting the tires to the point it is sealant ready.
I had 3 race wheels to do;

A. The first one – Swiss Side disc – went on very quick and painless. Tire bead seated just using a regular bike pump. Keeps air pressure for several hours without sealant. Retains some overnight.

B. HED Vanquish RC6 front went also on without issues. Not sure if I could have seat the bead with a regular pump as I had the compressor out by that point since I worked on #3 below first, but it popped in easy and retains air also for a period of time and I can’t hear any leak even if it goes back down to 15-20 PSI overnight.

C. HED Vanquish RC8 Rear: lost my afternoon trying to set it up. Pretty frustrated.

The tire just does not want to seat in place... and with extreme measures (C02) I can get it there but it will not stay if removing the air.
Progression:
- Hand pump: no go
- Got the compressor out, lost time figuring out the bits I needed to connect to a Presta valve: no go. Tire not grapping and seating. No motion at all.
- After some research, sprayed the bead and wheel w soapy water – no go
- I thought perhaps there was only 1 layer of tape.. so I took it out (to find out there was actually 2 layers on) and put 2 new layers of tubeless tape. Then I mounted with a regular tube and inflated and left it like that for 1.5h both to make the tape stick well w pressure AND perhaps to shape the tire to sit in the bead
- Removed the valve core to have less restriction and more air flow using the compressor: no go
- Tried another tire – same model but in 25 mm instead of 28mm, same that I put without issue on the RC6 front, no change. So it follows the wheel not the tire.
- In the end, the only way I got it to seat and pop: wasting a C02 cartridge – that worked!
- BUT when I let the CO2 out to replace with air, the tire bead popped out on the one side and went back toward the middle of the channel.
- At least with one side in place I thought the compressor with valve in would work to put it back: NO GO!
- Only way I could do it: remove the valve core, use the compressor > bead seated. Then I had to plug the valve tube with my finger and put back the valve quickly before too much air got out.
- Inflate to pressure again

After all that ordeal, I can hear a very small air leak, and pressure goes down to 15-20 psi within 1-2 hours, then it holds that. Unclear where it’s from (could not find using soapy water – maybe I did not do a good enough job with the tape replacement. I plan to order more tape and re-do it before assuming that the sealant will take care of whatever it is.

I still think this is not right – it should not be so difficult to get the tire on this wheel - something is off.

My questions:
1) What does it mean if the tire bead is so hard to seat and if it unseat itself when air is removed? How to address this? I do feel it should stay there.. What if I have a flat on the road?!
- Is that an issue with tolerances on the rim from the wheel?
- Do I need to build more tape layers to increase tightness/friction? Already have 2 there.. would using 3 or 4 be very unusual?
- Or what else should be done?

2) What should be the tubeless tape width for HED vanquish RC Pro?
...I thought it should be 25 mm, but when I used 25mm tape it does not go quite all the way to both internal walls (but close.. Maybe 26mm would have been better if not too wide)

I have to say, so far this has been frustrating experience with this rear wheel.
I do plan to order an "Airshot inflator" to avoid wasting C02 cans or from having to break out the compressor in the future.

But I am still thinking that unless I figure a way to make it mount better, this is kind of risky for travel races or issues at an event.

---

---------------------------------
T. Guertin / Spocket

I run 28s with tubes on 80 and no pinch flats :)

I have tried 70s but it feels too bouncy to me.

---

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

I own four Vanquish Pro wheels - a pair of V6s, V8 rear, and a disc; I also have a Jet. I've used only Conti 5K tires on all these wheels and never had the issue that you've had. I wonder if you're not getting the tire seated completely. Also, when you remove the air, are you doing so slowly? If not, that can cause the bead to pop out.

25mm is the correct width tape; it doesn't cover the entire width of the rim bed, but it's really close. I've tried several different kinds of tape - DT Swiss, Stan's, HED, Muc-Off, and Scotch 8898 strapping tape - and a single layer of DT Swiss has worked best for me.

---

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Forgive me for bumping this thread if these issues have been covered, but 24 pages is a lot of info to digest.

I'm just now going to try going tubeless on a set of Reynold AR80s I bought from a forum member. I plan on a pair of Vittoria tubeless ready 26c tires and starting with Orange Endurance sealant.

As stated, this will be all new for me so my questions are, 1) how much sealant should I need for each tire? 2) In a hotter climate like Las Vegas, should I choose a different sealant? 3) How often should I change sealant in this climate?

I guess if I was going to have a fourth question it would be something to the effect of, do I need to inspect tires after each ride for evidence of a puncture? One of the things I hear about from tubeless proponents is they talk about picking up thorns or glass or some other debris in the tire and not knowing about it during the ride. So if that's the case, I assume you need periodic inspection to find and remove puncture sources. And if you do pick something up, once removed, do you have to patch the inside of the tire casing like what is done with an automotive tire puncture?

And because I'm sure one or all of these questions has already been asked and answered, if you want to just point me towards a source, I'll be happy to look there.

What does 26c mean?

700x26c tires.

What does the c mean?

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure. I think it has to do with the width measurement. I just know I see that 'c' designation on most of the tires I have/buy.

Don't tempt me to explain what the 'c' is in your post ..... ;-)

So first tubeless fail day for me today. Now in fairness then after dry xmas it absolutely pissed it down last night and so lots of debris on the road. Out of 8 of us there were 6 punctures by 50km, so I'm not blaming tubeless in any way.

But I started with a puncture in the rear (Vittoria Rubino 28mm MucOff sealant 80psi) which didn't self seal. Heard it pst-pst-pst-pst as I was riding then it rapidly deflated to nothing as I stopped. When I had a look was a decent size cut in main centre belt of tyre. So popped in a small dynaplug and that sorted it, which was pleasing as first use of one of those. Didn't have a knife so left the tails out and by time I stopped 30km later then the tails had worn flush.

But then I thought I'd top up a little more air once we got to the top of the climb and waiting for a regroup, and again, not a tubeless issue specifically, but the lezyne pump I use screws onto the valve and as I was pumping the bike slipped off the post it was leant against, snapping the core. So then I've got the pump stuck to the valve that's still in the stem, can't get it off. In the end had to snap the valve (the small narrow brass inner) to be able to get the pump off.

Fortunately by this point still had air in tyre and so was still rideable, albeit I was not going to risk any high speed descent incase it rapidly deflated.

And even more luckily, was able to sort with just a new core, no new valve needed, and so no need to take the tyre off.

The only difference here is that if I'd done this on tubed, then it would have been easy to bin the tube and stick another one in. What I've learnt from this is that despite having plugs, CO2 and a pump on me, then I also need to carry a tube and valve extender.

Feel free to enlighten me. I'm trying to learn this stuff anyway.

Sorry, my comment wasn't directed at you.

The 'c' is a bit of a hangover now, and you'll see it in different places. 700x26c you can take to mean a 700mm diameter (standard road size) tyre that has a nominal width of 26mm. 700x28c, 28mm nominal width. Note that depending on rim width then the actual width (and shape) of the tyre will vary. Recently (last 5 years?) rims have started getting wider. Mount a 28mm tyre on an old narrow rim and it will inflate in the shape of a lightbulb. On a wider rim it will be more semicircular.

Now you'll also see 700c in some places which is a real hangover from (now antique) bikes that had very slightly different rim depths, and so there was 700a, b and c. Or indeed more recently then the c was for 'clincher' as opposed to tubular tyres that needed taping onto a rim.

In all situations now I think it's safe you can ignore the c bit, focus on the 700 (means it's for a road bike, not a MTB), and the width that will be between 25 and 32. Note that you may not be able to fit some of those wider tyres on your bike, as there may not be the clearance from wheel to fork/frame.

Question about dynaplug repairs. Are you supposed to remove tyre and add a patch inside once home?

I needed to use a plug a few weeks ago, and that worked fine. Was a small slash cut. Today on the ride then I had another puncture which did mostly manage to self seal once I stopped riding - I say mostly as it stopped hissing and was just slowly bubbling. But I popped another plug in and it got me home, albeit at 50psi.

Looking at it then it seems the initial plug had come out/worn out as it's in the same place.

So far not having good luck with tubeless - 4 rides, 2 punctures, and managed to bend a valve stem which nearly left my bike unrideable - I've now got a tube with a valve extender in the pack.

Was your repair plug a dynaplug, or a bacon strip? I've found the bacon strips can work their way out with time. Dynaplugs will definitely last the rest of the lift of the tire. It will wear down on the outside though, eventually it basically just looks like part of the tire.

You might want to add some more sealant. How much did you put in initially? I find for tires I'm training with I'll use 1.5-2oz, no need to skimp for a training setup.

It was a dynaplug. When I got home I deflated and added more sealant through the valve. As you said, had worn down on outside to be only just visible. And there was plenty of sealant yesterday when it 'fell out'.

I think what may have happened is the split/slash in the tyre from the initial puncture extended to the side of the plugtail. When I put the second plug in that disturbed the cap and basically made it worse.

New tyre(s) on way. Also going to try Stans instead of MucOff as sealant.

Not really so 'great'. The real plus to the AS TRs is the wet weather grip combined with acceptably low RR.

"The main weakness is again the puncture resistance of the tread, which comes in lower than expected for an all-season tire. The relatively low puncture resistance is no surprise, and it's the design choice Continental made as they assume the tubeless sealant will seal most punctures in a tubeless-ready tire."

Tubeless road opinions (again, just OPINIONS despite the declarative structure of my statements below):

1. You should only consider tubeless if you're willing to run tires at 28mm or larger and 70 psi or lower. If you want to run 25s or 26s at 80+, I would just stick with tubes. As a result, if you have a rim brake bike I honestly wouldn't recommend tubeless as you'll likely have clearance issues. I'll bet 30mm tires become standard on the road over the next year or so, that's perfect for tubeless.
2. If you're going to go tubeless, you will need to develop new skills. Mounting a tubeless tire isn't difficult once you get the hang of it, but you do need to develop a process that works for you. The first three times are going to be annoying, trust me. You will also need to monitor your sealant and refill every few months. If you don't want to deal with this, I get it. Just stick with tubes.
3. You are going to need new tools if you want an easier go of it. You need ridiculously-priced tape, you need absurdly expensive sealant, you need a valve core remover etc. Ideally you should invest in a compressor and inflator. This will all cost you at least $300-$350. If that seems outrageous, you can go cheaper but realize that everything will be harder. For example, going with cheaper tape that's not tubeless specific can work well but you'll have to carefully trim it, deal with leakeage etc. Likewise, it's very possible to set up a tubeless tire with a regular floor pump, but it usually fails a few times and gets annoying. If you have eight bikes set up tubeless as I do, this is easily worth it to just go by the book and get the right equipment and tools. Again, if you don't want to deal with this that's understandable. Just stick with tubes.
4. If you are buying tubeless wheels, I think you should get hooked rims with solid rim beds for the road. Farsports and Light Bicycle (among others) have many such options and they make good stuff for reasonable prices. The weak part of tubeless is the tape which can be a pain to setup and can shift when installing or removing tires. A solid rim bed is just easier to deal with. Yes it takes thirty more seconds for you or your mechanic to replace a broken spoke with a solid rim bed, but they also don't have to retape the wheel. Likewise, hookless is fine at 50psi or lower (it's great from MTB) but I just feel hooked is more reliable at 60psi or higher. I avoid Zipp and Enve on the road for this reason. Just my opinion.
5. Buy Dynaplugs and learn to use them. Bacon strips and Darts just don't work as well. Plugging a puncture is not difficult and works well. I've only had to do it twice in five years of running tubeless exclusively. Also, whatever you do keep the plugs in your jersey pocket. Don't stuff the plugs into a bag and then be fumbling around while sealant is squirting everywhere.

Given all of the above annoyance, why go tubeless?
1. I've only punctured in a manner that required me to stop twice in five years of riding road, gravel, MTB, fatbike etc exclusively tubeless. I've never had to insert a tube in a tubeless tire. Ever. Flats are frankly just not a concern for me.
2. 28s at 62 psi on the road is a revelation. More comfort, more grip and it's likely faster. It's better in every way.
3. Once you get the hang of it and have the right tools, getting a tubeless tire to seat may actually be easier than getting a tubed tire mounted. You blow the beads on, run the tire until it wears out and then replace it. Rinse and repeat.