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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The multiplayer aspect is an interesting one, and something that I know many people thrive on for training. Many people seem to be more social and even have a preference on that element with the training riding shotgun as a side benefit. The group aspect of Zwift and other options surely helped push the indoor cycling and training from the rare to the common over the last 4-5 years. It exploded a market in smart trainers that was a small one for decades.

Two issues I see with the group aspect that must be overcome by any app/service are as follows:
1. Timing of Workouts: If you are to be successful, you need to offer a large range to time slots to fit the variations of many people with widely different schedules. Morning, noon and night are required in general, to meet the timing of people even in the same basic country, not to mention if you aim to be a worldwide option. This means having a scheduling system and likely people leading the workouts. Ideally, you need some decent membership overall to fill workouts so people don't end up "alone" with just the instructor (which leads to the 2nd point). One of the biggest reason that many people add an app like TrainerRoad or Zwift is the freedom to do a workout whenever suits their time in the day. That freedom is lost a bit if you now need to meet at a more controlled (and possibly limited) time.

The whole issue is pro's and con's with things to be gained, but also sacrificed. If you need or value the motivation that comes from a group dynamic, you may have to adjust your personal schedule to match. Others who are happy to roll solo retain that relative schedule freedom. Zwift offers both with the option to do solo or group workouts. Others like TrainerRoad or The Sufferfest will face some work if they try to move into this area.

I know there is interest in this type of group element even in the TR world. We did a "group" event last winter for doing a particularly long and difficult TR workout. The group aspect of Discord chat and discussion in forums lead to some people taking on a challenge they may have never tried on their own. Group dynamics can have a real impact on people and push them to new heights, so I think there is value to consider in that direction.

2. Instructors and Workout Leaders: The two models currently in play are from Peloton (with paid instructors) and Zwift (with many unpaid instructors, and maybe some paid?). Peloton is spending some real money to get people to lead the many workouts they run every day. Zwift is effectively outsourcing some (if not all?) of their workout leaders. It can be a case of you get what you pay for, but I don't think that tells the whole story. I have seen and attended some great lead workouts by "regular" users and coaches. But as with anything done in a looser manner, there tends to be more variability in quality.

You hit on the other difficulty which is simply getting people to lead the workouts. As an unpaid rider in most cases, it's a fair undertaking to even just lead a single workout. Communications and other setup are often required to be successful. Add in the option to make something of an actual training plan and the workload can become large. I marvel at the work some people put into their workouts and the groups that surround them. There is some real great effort supplied by a lot of great Zwift leaders. But that is one reason I think we don't see more people taking on that unpaid effort.

Zwift may keep the community driven aspect that did so well to help it grow, but it may need to take a step towards offering it's own "certified" workouts and leaders. We see this to a degree with things like the Zwift Academy and the more controlled events and workouts. There is enough work to justify compensation, and they may well be doing so (I have no idea, but would't be surprised if people earn discounts or even real pay for some of their work).

- - - -
All that said, I think there is value to group workouts, but they aren't without some work to make them happen. Any app/service has to look at the cost/benefit and where they see themselves in the marketplace.
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [MarkRebuck] [ In reply to ]
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MarkRebuck wrote:
Slowman wrote:
...
i think the landscape is different today. zwift has done a pretty good job of becoming a structured training platform, but it's gone beyond that via the multiplayer experience.
...

I totally agree, and I think this is missing from much of the discussion. Nearly every time Zwift and TR are mentioned for structured training, it is of the form "Zwift sucks, TR rules!". But Zwift really is a decent/approachable structured training platform. The folks who think TR has some kind of uncrossable moat around their secret training sauce are... probably a bit optimistic.

The things that make TR awesome could be done in Zwift, sometimes easily (e.g. the specific workouts). The things that make Zwift awesome can't be done in TR, at all.

This is how I decided to go with zwift over trainer road and the sufferfest.

I can manage adding workouts to zwift or simply following a plan while in zwift. If I want to do a group ride I can do that as well. Not so much for the other options out there.
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [proftri] [ In reply to ]
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The killer--and rarely discussed--feature that Zwift has is automatic uploading of workouts from TrainingPeaks to Zwift. My coach loads a structured workout into TP, and it shows up in Zwift when I log on. It just works, and it simplifies life for everybody.

This!
Uploading my prescribed workout from TrainingPeaks to Trainerroad is really a pain in the ass. More so now with the new version where you can't filter workouts by date.
It would be so convenient if they showed up on my TR calendar!
Both my Wahoo Bolt and Garmin 935 have the TP workout of the day loaded without my intervention.
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [RCCo] [ In reply to ]
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RCCo wrote:
I use all 3 - depending on my mood and what i want from the ride.
.

If you're significant other looked at your credit card statement and made you choose one, which would it be?

I'm on Rouvy mainly because of the family plan. I have tried the others and SF is my favorite, but cant justify multiple subs.

***
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [Jon] [ In reply to ]
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Jon wrote:
Ha Ha - watching stage 2 of the Tour de France yesterday I said to my wife, "Team Time Trial would be deadly in real life, but boy would it be a fun indoor workout". Opened this thread and Sufferfest has that workout.

We sure do! That workout is called 'Team Scream' and - as you see in that trailer - features on-board camera footage from the BMC team in the Hammer Stavanger race. The workout was designed by our SUF Science Division's Cycling Physiologist, Mac Cassin. Mac has raced the TTT at the UCI World Championships, is a former member of the US National Team Pursuit Squad, 2017 National Points Race Champion and a member of the 303 Project Elite racing team (we believe that who designs your workout matters so we have some of the best in the business). The workout is based on both your FTP and your MAP (maximal aerobic power) numbers so you get an absolutely amazing, effective, realistic and immersive session. Mac considers it his masterpiece (so far). Give it a try!

David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [Eroc43] [ In reply to ]
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Eroc43 wrote:
I am a fan of TR and SF. My current subscription is to TR as I am training for a specific event, but after that I could see having the SF as I think the videos are pretty fun.

So glad you enjoy the SUF. We're more than just fun, though (although we are a lot of fun. :)). And if you're training for a specific event, our training plans (more than 100) are designed by our Chief Science Officer, Neal Henderson. Neal has coached his athletes to 47 world championships -- including, most recently, Rohan Dennis to the UCI World TT champs and, last year, Flora Duffy to all her multi-sport wins (he also coaches US sensation Taylor Knibb on the triathlon side). The experience and track record of the coach who designs your plans matters. The plans - which are dialed in to focus address the demands of a particular event and and address your weaknesses - can also integrate our strength training, yoga and mental toughness training programmes for a truly well-rounded approach.

David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [Chader09] [ In reply to ]
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So many good points in here by Chader09.

I’ve been leading rides on Zwift since the beta days. Our group was one of the first to lead workouts well before there was any sort of an event module. We’ve also streamed and organized group rides during the Tour of Sufferlandria. I think we have a lot of experience with what works well and doesn’t.

There’s a great benefit in sharing suffering with another rider. But there isn’t a great solution in Zwift or Sufferfest (yet?) where I can easily communicate with the riders in “my workout” and also monitor how they are performing. We’ve used discord for verbal chat and co streamed to some success.

The comments about different training plans and workouts is dead on. Everyone has a different “A” event and thus are at different spots in their plans. I believe this to be different than peloton users who are primarily fitness oriented and not race oriented.

Lots of issues in social cycling workouts.

http://www.teamodz.com
http://www.endurancelab.fit
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I subscribe to Zwift, TP, TR, and Strava. Main reason for Strava and TR is I forgot to cancel before subscription. So now I have a year long trial period to test them out.

I have a love hate relationship with Wahoo. My 2017 Kickr is fantastic. My Element sucks. I'm on my third one in less than a year. The elevation issue is much known and easy fix with elevation correction in strava. Just annoying. Most recent issue now is my sensors are connected but not displaying data. I put my 910xt next to Element and all data shows on 910xt just not Element. So looks like I get another unit, which I will promptly sell and move back to Garmin.

I left SUF a few years ago but I hear they've matured a lot. I am annoyed how cumbersome it is to use TR on Zwift. I rarely use TR which sucks since I paid for it. I wish it were easier to get it to work with Zwift. I can't just stare at a screen like the pre-zwift days. Zwift workouts are meh. TR are awesome. But I also hear SUF are great as well. So I'll give SUF a try this winter.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [The Sufferfest] [ In reply to ]
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The Sufferfest wrote:
Jon wrote:
Ha Ha - watching stage 2 of the Tour de France yesterday I said to my wife, "Team Time Trial would be deadly in real life, but boy would it be a fun indoor workout". Opened this thread and Sufferfest has that workout.


We sure do! That workout is called 'Team Scream' and - as you see in that trailer - features on-board camera footage from the BMC team in the Hammer Stavanger race. The workout was designed by our SUF Science Division's Cycling Physiologist, Mac Cassin. Mac has raced the TTT at the UCI World Championships, is a former member of the US National Team Pursuit Squad, 2017 National Points Race Champion and a member of the 303 Project Elite racing team (we believe that who designs your workout matters so we have some of the best in the business). The workout is based on both your FTP and your MAP (maximal aerobic power) numbers so you get an absolutely amazing, effective, realistic and immersive session. Mac considers it his masterpiece (so far). Give it a try!

I've done this one. It was really good fun and a great workout. I might schedule in another go at it :)
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
Slowman wrote:
exxxviii wrote:
So... I suspect this is the big story you had touched on a few months ago? This is huge. I suspect there will be a race to Zwift & TrainerRoad next. I would not be surprised at all to see TR or TrianingPeaks get acquired in 2020.

no. i didn't know about this until about a week and a half ago. but i do think this is pretty interesting and, yes, is this a roll up of platforms like this? is Zwift going to come out with its own hardware? is elite going to buy TR? or am i missing the big picture?

Instead of Zwift making its own hardware, my reaction was the reverse. Why would Wahoo keep its Zwift integration tight now? They say in their release they will, but it seems counterintuitive to me.

Interoperability is key. It would be business suicide to stop support/tight integration of Wahoo products with Zwift, just because they acquired a competitor. I’d say majority of Kickr/wahoo trainer riders use Zwift over Sufferfest, as it’s their largest platform and that narrative won’t change.
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I switched to an Apple TV unit when my computer died. It works great for swift, hopefully more apps like this will migrate to that platform, I miss having the option to do sufferfest videos.
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
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Parkland wrote:
MarkRebuck wrote:
Slowman wrote:

...
i think the landscape is different today. zwift has done a pretty good job of becoming a structured training platform, but it's gone beyond that via the multiplayer experience.
...


I totally agree, and I think this is missing from much of the discussion. Nearly every time Zwift and TR are mentioned for structured training, it is of the form "Zwift sucks, TR rules!". But Zwift really is a decent/approachable structured training platform. The folks who think TR has some kind of uncrossable moat around their secret training sauce are... probably a bit optimistic.

The things that make TR awesome could be done in Zwift, sometimes easily (e.g. the specific workouts). The things that make Zwift awesome can't be done in TR, at all.


This is how I decided to go with zwift over trainer road and the sufferfest.

I can manage adding workouts to zwift or simply following a plan while in zwift. If I want to do a group ride I can do that as well. Not so much for the other options out there.

True, only problem is that what makes TR awesome is NOT being done in Zwift currently.
I gave Zwift a very serious try last year. Their workouts are horrible! I tried 2-3 different plans and doing a week on each or so. They mixes all kind of intensities in one workout with no focus. Wierd random time intervals, sometimes no warmup/warmdown (rare), not seeing progress over the weeks. No "base build specialty" plan based on your end goal, just a "FTP builder" etc. So yes it can be done but it is not their focus, their focus is "esport".
Then they ofcourse have what TR dont multiplayer, either races or strolling around in the world, strolling around is fine what not needing any specific workout. Races, i sadly never got in to i tried, but all races ends up being a ITT after 10 minutes of racing. Also as soon as the road is flat or downwards i think indoor training fails hard. Not being able to push on downs/flats is super annoying, i think there should be some internal minimum gradiant at all time (might be trainer specific).
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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Economist wrote:
I subscribe to Zwift, TP, TR, and Strava. Main reason for Strava and TR is I forgot to cancel before subscription. So now I have a year long trial period to test them out.

I have a love hate relationship with Wahoo. My 2017 Kickr is fantastic. My Element sucks. I'm on my third one in less than a year. The elevation issue is much known and easy fix with elevation correction in strava. Just annoying. Most recent issue now is my sensors are connected but not displaying data. I put my 910xt next to Element and all data shows on 910xt just not Element. So looks like I get another unit, which I will promptly sell and move back to Garmin.

I left SUF a few years ago but I hear they've matured a lot. I am annoyed how cumbersome it is to use TR on Zwift. I rarely use TR which sucks since I paid for it. I wish it were easier to get it to work with Zwift. I can't just stare at a screen like the pre-zwift days. Zwift workouts are meh. TR are awesome. But I also hear SUF are great as well. So I'll give SUF a try this winter.


Made me think of this past weekend dealing, once again, with my Garmin 820 that is on a BTA mount. Every drop of sweat was changing the display and even going as far as attempting to change settings. About mid ride I finally got the screen to lock, but each drop of sweat was still moving to the next screen option. I was so frustrated by the screen sensitivity (edit: I already had it set on the lowest screen sensitivity setting) that I got home and looked at Wahoo. :-) The next day I used my old trusty Garmin 800 and it worked great despite rain and sweat hitting the display. Glad to take note of your reliability issues with the Element. I guess both companies can have their own issues.

I may be the outlier with using a Kickr Gen 1 and PerfPro. I like PerfPro because it is not a subscription and has a lot of features, post ride analysis and settings. I also use WKO4 for the same reason that I don't want to pay endlessly for TP. My first year or so with the Kickr was a PITA, but the past couple years or whenever Wahoo came out with the last firmware update with the Advanced Spin down it got my Kickr within 2 watts of my Quarq power meter on a dedicated trainer bike. It's been running sweet ever since. Once I got it that close with the Advanced Spin down I have left it all alone. Very minimal drift during the trainer sessions as well. With PerfPro I can see the comparison between the trainer watts and the power meter watts.

I feel like the odd guy out because everyone around me in my cycling circle uses Zwift. I am just content to use a simple or typical 2x20ish type sessions in ERG mode, upload from PerfPro to WKO4 and call it a day.
Last edited by: Felt_Rider: Jul 10, 19 4:37
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [The Sufferfest] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, did several of the SUF training plans for CX and MTB, but at the time there was not a 140.6 plan available. I see that is now changed! Great add.
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [jroden] [ In reply to ]
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jroden wrote:
I switched to an Apple TV unit when my computer died. It works great for swift, hopefully more apps like this will migrate to that platform, I miss having the option to do sufferfest videos.

I'd love to see The Sufferfest on AppleTV!

Janyne
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [The Sufferfest] [ In reply to ]
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I would very much like a fully integrated flogging station that's adjustable like a fit bike, can handle the acid I sweat melting winter fat, won't fall apart with big watts and can be hosed off in the driveway on which to shred my chamois. Oh yeah, it must be affordable on a Sufferlandrian's meager salary of cabbage leaves and entirely plug and play.
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [The Sufferfest] [ In reply to ]
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The Sufferfest wrote:


We sure do! That workout is called 'Team Scream' and - as you see in that trailer - features on-board camera footage from the BMC team in the Hammer Stavanger race. The workout was designed by our SUF Science Division's Cycling Physiologist, Mac Cassin. Mac has raced the TTT at the UCI World Championships, is a former member of the US National Team Pursuit Squad, 2017 National Points Race Champion and a member of the 303 Project Elite racing team (we believe that who designs your workout matters so we have some of the best in the business). The workout is based on both your FTP and your MAP (maximal aerobic power) numbers so you get an absolutely amazing, effective, realistic and immersive session. Mac considers it his masterpiece (so far). Give it a try!

Hey David, I'm an old time Sufferfest user but drifted away a while back when there was no Android support. That said, I'm hopelessly under-trained for a big time climbing triathlon in September (Savageman). I do almost all my training on the turbo these days. Do you think The Sufferfest can whip my fat *ss into shape in short order?
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [Sasquatch] [ In reply to ]
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Sasquatch wrote:
I would very much like a fully integrated flogging station that's adjustable like a fit bike, can handle the acid I sweat melting winter fat, won't fall apart with big watts and can be hosed off in the driveway on which to shred my chamois. Oh yeah, it must be affordable on a Sufferlandrian's meager salary of cabbage leaves and entirely plug and play.

ERG Mode Flogging?

Wonder if there will be a post ride metric (EFL) to show how much flogging one took during the session and if so does it boost your weekly CTL?
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
The Sufferfest wrote:
Slowman wrote:
... please do us the honor of not linking to some other site's story. unless it's better than ours ;-)


Can we put the link to our own story about Wahoo + The Sufferfest, Dan? Gives a bit more insight than the press release :)
https://thesufferfest.com/...match-made-in-agonia


I appreciate the passion you show for your company, but I do want to point out one mistake in your article. You say the Kickr was the worlds first smart trainer, but the Computrainer built the first smart trainer a couple of decades earlier. IIRC I believe the Kickr was the first direct drive smart trainer, but I'm sure someone else will correct me if I'm wrong.

Velotron is a direct drive trainer (possibly not first either), but certainly prior to the Kickr.
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [jmkizer] [ In reply to ]
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jmkizer wrote:
jroden wrote:
I switched to an Apple TV unit when my computer died. It works great for swift, hopefully more apps like this will migrate to that platform, I miss having the option to do sufferfest videos.

I'd love to see The Sufferfest on AppleTV!

Another yes for Apple TV!

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: If you're going to write about The Sufferfest... [dprocket] [ In reply to ]
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dprocket wrote:
Hey David, I'm an old time Sufferfest user but drifted away a while back when there was no Android support. That said, I'm hopelessly under-trained for a big time climbing triathlon in September (Savageman). I do almost all my training on the turbo these days. Do you think The Sufferfest can whip my fat *ss into shape in short order?
Absolutely! We've got stock plans that can help, but perhaps one of our customised training plans - designed designed by one of our SUFCoaches after a chat and information provided by you - would be better if you've got a tighter time frame, a very specific goal and some life constraints that a plan needs to work around. More details on how that works and what your coach prepares for you here: https://thesufferfest.com/...d-suf-training-plans

David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest
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