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Moving to 21st Century Trainers
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So the old Computrainer has about given up the ghost, I can't complain, I've had it, or most of it since the last century. I'm looking at replacing it with something like a Wahoo Kickr or TacX Neo and it looks like everything seems to come with some kind of subscription. I have a moral objection to buying any product that locks me into a subscription for the rest of my life to make it useful. With the CT, I bought it, I used it, I built an occasional custom course for training, I downloaded the occasional course somebody posted for a major race, and used it without looking at it as another cell phone bill. The first thing I noticed about the TacX was all the wonderful subscriptions you could get with it. I'm not saying I might not try something like Zwift to see how it works out, but I was perfectly happy with CT's system other than the the fact that it ate tires. And if I try Zwift and a TacX, have I now got two subscriptions I have to pay for????? My CT Pro was a fairly pricey system 20 years ago but at least after It arrived and set up I was done paying for it. Am I missing the boat and all the new systems will work fine stand alone and will give you old Computrainer like capabilities? Or, is it now a subscription world to get past a mid level trainer?

Every night that I run, the thought crosses my mind that there's no way in hell I'll still be running a month from now.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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You need something to run the trainer. But, you only need one something. I am not sure if the standard Tacx or Wahoo apps have free options. I know that my old Kurt Kinetic's app was free for very good quality individual workouts. I now own a Tacx Neo 2 (used to have a KICKR), and the only subscription I have is TrainerRoad. You could just as easily build workouts yourself and use those in your head unit or other to run the trainer. I am pretty sure that would be free. But, the quality of workouts and overall plan are totally on you.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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PerfPro software is one time payment. You can also control the trainer with Garmin or wahoo head units I believe. And most trainers have apps on phones that can control the trainer.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
PerfPro software is one time payment. You can also control the trainer with Garmin or wahoo head units I believe. And most trainers have apps on phones that can control the trainer.
I would have no objection to buying some kind of software to run the unit, I've got a spare, fairly large, flat screen TV to hook it up to, and if need be, I can buy a Win 10 computer to run the whole works. I just don't want to get locked in to some product that's useless without the subscription.

Every night that I run, the thought crosses my mind that there's no way in hell I'll still be running a month from now.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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PerfPro is solid although a bit overwhelming at first. But it has a bunch of built in workouts and is easy to create your own. I think it’s like $100. No subscription. I think lifetime updates.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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You do not need a subscription to use the Tacx app. It works just fine without one, and you can create and save workouts for free. You get more fancy features if you pay, but I can't review them, because I don't.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
PerfPro is solid although a bit overwhelming at first. But it has a bunch of built in workouts and is easy to create your own. I think it’s like $100. No subscription. I think lifetime updates.

+1000 for PerfPro
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
You need something to run the trainer. But, you only need one something. I am not sure if the standard Tacx or Wahoo apps have free options. I know that my old Kurt Kinetic's app was free for very good quality individual workouts. I now own a Tacx Neo 2 (used to have a KICKR), and the only subscription I have is TrainerRoad. You could just as easily build workouts yourself and use those in your head unit or other to run the trainer. I am pretty sure that would be free. But, the quality of workouts and overall plan are totally on you.
The old CT had a head unit that ran to a computer with output to a CRT monitor. If I get a cheap Windows 10 computer, it should be able to do WiFi and have an hdmi for the TV. Would it still need some kind of head unit or would it just do WiFi to the computer and I could get a one time cost software to run everything?

Every night that I run, the thought crosses my mind that there's no way in hell I'll still be running a month from now.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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Man, if you enjoy cycling and the thrill of racing others on a bike, Zwift is amazing. My only problem with Zwift is that I often end up riding TOO hard, but I have wayyy more fun riding indoors than anything else I've ever tried - and I was a pretty serious indoor trainer person even before these fancy trainers. Zwift with a decent computer setup + monitor is absolutely worth every penny - there's nothing else like it out there where you can legitimately race lots and lots of other people, do these surprisingly fun megagroup rides with 500+ riders (up Alpe De Zwift no less!) and structured group workouts along with tons of killer races.

I too hate subscriptions, but Zwift is absolutely awesome with a nice setup.

If you want no-subscriptions, the Wahoo Kickr comes with a free phone app that's pretty bare-bones but you can control your Kickr erg power number in real time with it, and it'll log your ride stats. You can't program workouts with changing power into it, but it works amazingly well for what it is. I used it for several months after mentally burning out on Trainerroad structured workouts (and I haven't gone back since - those workouts are total soul crushers and made me literally want to quit bike training after doing it for 3 months!)
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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The first thing to do is identify the free apps or one-time purchase apps that can run smart trainers (like PerfPro mentioned above, and probably Tacx's & Wahoo's apps). Then, for each, identify the platforms on which they run. I am pretty sure that most are designed for mobile apps, but some may have Windows 10 options. Then, you could decide whether you want to throw the app UI to a TV or just live off the mobile device. That is just simple cabling.

Regarding connectivity, the trainer will be controlled over Bluetooth or Ant+. That depends on the app software and platform. For example I subscribe to TrainerRoad and use a Windows 10 device. For that, I have Ant+ on the W10 for control. But occasionally, my W10 machine is dead (let the battery drain when not using it), so I drive it from the iOS TrianerRoad app. In that scenario, it controls the trainer via Bluetooth.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
The first thing to do is identify the free apps or one-time purchase apps that can run smart trainers (like PerfPro mentioned above, and probably Tacx's & Wahoo's apps). Then, for each, identify the platforms on which they run. I am pretty sure that most are designed for mobile apps, but some may have Windows 10 options. Then, you could decide whether you want to throw the app UI to a TV or just live off the mobile device. That is just simple cabling.

Regarding connectivity, the trainer will be controlled over Bluetooth or Ant+. That depends on the app software and platform. For example I subscribe to TrainerRoad and use a Windows 10 device. For that, I have Ant+ on the W10 for control. But occasionally, my W10 machine is dead (let the battery drain when not using it), so I drive it from the iOS TrianerRoad app. In that scenario, it controls the trainer via Bluetooth.
A dedicated stand alone computer with TV would be my first option so Bluetooth to that shouldn't be a problem. Running off a mobile device would be useless as I'm more interested in the the flow of data than the the actual graphics and the data flow on the old CT system took up half a TV screen and would be too small to see. What I really want is to just turn it on, call up a favorite ride, and ride it, and not have to worry if the internet is down. I may try all that stuff at some point but you're probably right and I need to approach this from the point of what platform I want to use 95% of the time.

Every night that I run, the thought crosses my mind that there's no way in hell I'll still be running a month from now.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [Livio Livius] [ In reply to ]
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Livio Livius wrote:
mickison wrote:
PerfPro is solid although a bit overwhelming at first. But it has a bunch of built in workouts and is easy to create your own. I think it’s like $100. No subscription. I think lifetime updates.

+1000 for PerfPro

Me too. Doesn't get as much love here as it deserves. It really shines in a group environment but works just as well individually. Create your own workouts, hook up a video of your choice, connect a bunch of Bluetooth or ANT+ sensors and off you go.

Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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So, you dropped a couple more must-have requirements in there. I am pretty sure you will find something that meets most (maybe not all) of them. The tough one might be disconnected-- almost every modern app in most spaces expected to be connected. There are few fat client apps anymore, except maybe the Office apps. So, this is what you are looking for:
  • Windows 10 platform
  • Designed for TV output
  • Works disconnected
  • Free or one-time purchase

All that said, TrainerRoad and Zwift subscriptions are very much worth a hard look. They are both $15/month, and give you massive value. Both are top of class for what they do, and users swear by them. TR's customer support is fantastic. A friend of mine trying to build for RAGBRI signed up for TR and contacted them about which plan-- they did a great job of asking about his current fitness and recommending a perfect set of plans. If you are jumping into the 21st century smart trainer hardware, it is worth jumping into the 21st century training software with it-- maximize the value of your hardware investment.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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You don't need any subscription or software to run the kickr or neo. All you need is a head unit that is ANT+ FEC capable and you can load your workout to it and voila. Done.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
So, you dropped a couple more must-have requirements in there. I am pretty sure you will find something that meets most (maybe not all) of them. The tough one might be disconnected-- almost every modern app in most spaces expected to be connected. There are few fat client apps anymore, except maybe the Office apps. So, this is what you are looking for:
  • Windows 10 platform
  • Designed for TV output
  • Works disconnected
  • Free or one-time purchase

All that said, TrainerRoad and Zwift subscriptions are very much worth a hard look. They are both $15/month, and give you massive value. Both are top of class for what they do, and users swear by them. TR's customer support is fantastic. A friend of mine trying to build for RAGBRI signed up for TR and contacted them about which plan-- they did a great job of asking about his current fitness and recommending a perfect set of plans. If you are jumping into the 21st century smart trainer hardware, it is worth jumping into the 21st century training software with it-- maximize the value of your hardware investment.
You've pretty much nailed it, part of what this comes down to is my internet is spotty and the absolute last thing I ever want is to go to do a workout and get the old message: " Sorry, Zwift or TR cannot connect to it's server so if you thought you were going to use your trainer tonight, YOU'RE SCREWED BUDDY". I don't want a system that gives me the "convenience" of storing all my info, records, etc, online like Apple does with it's phones so it almost forces you to buy another Apple phone after you've run over the old one because that's the only way you'll ever recover your data. After 20+ years with the Computrainer, I want that type of system. Everything operational stand alone, courses, records, etc. stored on my local computer, and a graphical display/system at least equal to my old system which had 10 to 15 year old software. I don't mind spending some extra bucks to make that happen, I may try one of the online services and maybe I'll love it, but I have absolutely zero tolerance for going to do a workout and having to depend on my internet, and their server, working.

Every night that I run, the thought crosses my mind that there's no way in hell I'll still be running a month from now.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]
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marklemcd wrote:
You don't need any subscription or software to run the kickr or neo. All you need is a head unit that is ANT+ FEC capable and you can load your workout to it and voila. Done.
So, again, this is part of the research I'm doing here. As my full intention seems to be using a Win10 computer to run a flat screen TV, do I still need some type of head unit to feed the computer, or will those two systems talk directly to the computer via wireless or some type of interface device other than a head unit? Remember, I'm still stuck in the 20th century where the head unit on the Computrainer actually ran the resistance unit, and was indispensable, and it seems like these newer systems can happily run without a head unit if you let these online services do the control for the resistance unit. So I'm digging at the question, does the computer, (or for that matter, an online service), totally replace a head unit?

Every night that I run, the thought crosses my mind that there's no way in hell I'll still be running a month from now.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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jsquared wrote:
Does the computer, (or for that matter, an online service), totally replace a head unit?
Yes. You only need one device to contorl a modern smart trainer. Modern smart trainers all work on a somewhat standard Ant+ and Bluetooth protocols. So, all a trainer needs is a device to control it. That device could be a head unit, a mobile device (Android, iPhone, iPad, etc.) running an app, a desktop (PC or Mac) running an app, or even Apple TV. You do not need more than one controller-- just one of the above.

Computrainer was a totally different system. It was somewhat closed and required multiple proprietary components. A modern computer stands alone.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
jsquared wrote:
Does the computer, (or for that matter, an online service), totally replace a head unit?

Yes. You only need one device to contorl a modern smart trainer. Modern smart trainers all work on a somewhat standard Ant+ and Bluetooth protocols. So, all a trainer needs is a device to control it. That device could be a head unit, a mobile device (Android, iPhone, iPad, etc.) running an app, a desktop (PC or Mac) running an app, or even Apple TV. You do not need more than one controller-- just one of the above.

Computrainer was a totally different system. It was somewhat closed and required multiple proprietary components. A modern computer stands alone.
Yea, I had to get a special video card installed in my Win XP system to talk to my old monitor for video out, and some special adapter for signal in, and I figured all the new systems had moved beyond that nonsense. I've been digging through websites and it looks like everybody has a level of basic stand alone capabilities, and everything online requires some kind of subscription. It isn't entirely clear however, if something like a Zwift subscription, replaces the proprietary subscription of the trainer manufacturers, or if you still need the pro-sub to connect a unit to Zwift.

Every night that I run, the thought crosses my mind that there's no way in hell I'll still be running a month from now.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [jsquared] [ In reply to ]
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jsquared wrote:
the proprietary subscription of the trainer manufacturers
There is no required proprietary trainer subscription. Every trainer manufacturer has a free app that does the minimums like firmware updates and delivering some free workouts. The subscriptions are optional if you want more advanced, structured workouts. Those subscriptions would be redundant with any of the 3rd party subscriptions like Zwift, TrainerRoad, Sufferfest, etc. You could buy a trainer and never even download or use their free app.
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Re: Moving to 21st Century Trainers [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Now I just have to figure out which one I want.

Every night that I run, the thought crosses my mind that there's no way in hell I'll still be running a month from now.
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