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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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vladi wrote:
bchambliss10 wrote:
I believe Race Pace in Ellicott City just got a new Bike Fit person, he was at Princeton Sports in Columbia and is really good.


Yes, right, I think I heard about this guy. Thanks!

I'm very friendly with the RPEC guys, they do some fine work on my bikes. That said, I'd be a touch skeptical about a TT fitting there (they are probably fine for a road or MTB fit). I'd want to know the names of some fast people the fitter has worked with who had good TT results for example before getting fit. Would be great if there is someone there who can do an aggressive fit for someone at the pointy end, but it would suck to waste time to go get yet another comfy but slow fit.
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [euskaltri] [ In reply to ]
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euskaltri wrote:
The most significant variable linked with speed is temperature. If the comparisons were made in one case with cold temp and on the other with hot temp, hot temp give always much better speed.

Thanks! The best apples to apples would be perhaps the same 10.0 mile flat course at Tri It (non-draft sprint), Bear, DE. Last year in mid-upper 80s (?) humid weather she averaged 21.17 and maxed 28.1mph on AR (according to bike comp). This year, low to mid 70s, nice weather, lower humidity, she overaged 20.63 and maxed 26.2mph on SC. The bike comp may not be super accurate, but the official bike time was exactly 1min slower this year (she still took OA though :-).
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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knighty76 wrote:
vladi wrote:
Her priority is draft legal.


Aha!

Is the average speed on the road bike taken from her races? If it is all draft legal on the roadie then I'd expect it to be fast, assuming she finds herself in a working group pretty often and not riding solo.

That might explain some of it. But it still shouldn't distract us from the piss poor TT bike fit she has had. Man, you should be excited, when you get her fit properly she will get a free turbo boost!

Cheers, Rich.


Thanks, Rich! Kinda both. My thumbly expectation (I do not race myself) was that a "well fitted" TT should be roughly as fast as a roadie in the pack. Will let you guys know once the fit is redone.
Last edited by: vladi: Jun 21, 19 6:48
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still digging around in DC and Baltimore but there's Dave Luscan in Richmond, VA and me in Raleigh, NC. We both do remote fits via video.

Eric

vladi wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Dad, where are you located? Is non draft important? She has the opposite of a top 30 nationally bike fit. Let’s figure out which reputable fitter is close to you.

Eric

vladi wrote:
You are right - she is 15, rated top 30 nationally last year


We are in MD, south of Baltimore, Ellicott City. Thanks!!

Her priority is draft legal, but she also ocasionally does sprint age group and road TT.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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vladi wrote:
You are right - she is 15, rated top 30 nationally last year

Ooo dang - I stand correct with my comment. Well done and props to you for supporting her goals! Make sure she stays away from boys - they are nothing but trouble for success (at least women were for me) haha.
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [limited] [ In reply to ]
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limited wrote:
If you put the gearing ratios into a speed calculator
50x14 @ 95rpm = 26.7mph
52x14 @ 95rpm = 27.7mph
for the entire range the 52/38 is about 1mph faster than the 50x34

obviously you need power to compare exactly but just the chain rings could be the difference

http://speed_at_cadence

No, the chainring difference only matters when its steep enough downhill to be spun out in the 50/14, but not to steep enough to be spun out in the 52/14. That's probably a ~1.2mph bracket somewhere in the 28 -30 mph range, which would likely only be a small portion of any course for someone averaging 21-22 mph.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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vladi wrote:
...Like I mentioned, the fit is very comfortable and she can stay on aerobars forever. ...

That sounds to me like the fit is off. TT position in the aerobars is NOT supposed to be "comfortable" where you can ride "all day long" - it normally means the aerobars are little too high and the saddle is too far back (relative to bottom bracket).
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [euskaltri] [ In reply to ]
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euskaltri wrote:
The most significant variable linked with speed is temperature. If the comparisons were made in one case with cold temp and on the other with hot temp, hot temp give always much better speed.

Hmmm.
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
euskaltri wrote:
The most significant variable linked with speed is temperature. If the comparisons were made in one case with cold temp and on the other with hot temp, hot temp give always much better speed.


Hmmm.

:)
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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Difficult to tell from the pictures, but are the pads for the clip-on bars on the Felt actually lower than the pads on the Trek?

Definitely a lot of free speed available in the Trek bike fit, even with some basic adjustments (and possibly the Felt, too, depending on what her racing/aero position looks like on there).

The aggressive TT-type fits are more of a niche within the bike fitting world, so you should almost expect to look more at the regional level than the local level. I'm a Howard County resident as well (time trialist), and I don't think I would go to one of the local shops for a more aggressive TT bike fit. Several can do the "comfort" triathlon fits, though, but I suspect that's essentially what you already got.

Looking more regional, one of my teammates (who is a very accomplished time trialist) got his most recent TT fitting from Jared Nieters at Haymarket Bikes in VA. ERO (in PA) has been mentioned already; I can't speak for the PA location, but their owner/founder (who's on Slowtwitch, too) does the bike fits for Rohan Dennis (among others), so they have to be doing something right.
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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vladi wrote:
jbank wrote:
I'm not a fitter, but that fit doesn't look fast. Do you have a picture of her on the road bike doing a TT. My bet is she looks better there.


Just added a road bike pic at the beginning of the thread. Thanks!

I know you are trying, but a picture of her in the drops on the road bike isn't helpful for comparing positions. I was hoping to see if her position in aero on the road bike was better than in aero on the TT bike. It is hard to tell for sure, but it looks like the drop from saddle to the clip on bars is more than on the TT bike. But a lot could depend on how she positions herself (does she choke up on the bars, etc), so without a picture on the road bike in aero it isn't useful. Also, it sounds like you may have been comparing a draft legal speed with non draft, which just throws the comparison out the window. On the plus side, I suspect you have gotten some good advice here on how to move forward. From the right perspective it is a fantastic thing that her position is bad; it means there should be plenty of room to improve.
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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jbank wrote:
vladi wrote:
jbank wrote:
I'm not a fitter, but that fit doesn't look fast. Do you have a picture of her on the road bike doing a TT. My bet is she looks better there.


Just added a road bike pic at the beginning of the thread. Thanks!

I know you are trying, but a picture of her in the drops on the road bike isn't helpful for comparing positions. I was hoping to see if her position in aero on the road bike was better than in aero on the TT bike. It is hard to tell for sure, but it looks like the drop from saddle to the clip on bars is more than on the TT bike. But a lot could depend on how she positions herself (does she choke up on the bars, etc), so without a picture on the road bike in aero it isn't useful. Also, it sounds like you may have been comparing a draft legal speed with non draft, which just throws the comparison out the window. On the plus side, I suspect you have gotten some good advice here on how to move forward. From the right perspective it is a fantastic thing that her position is bad; it means there should be plenty of room to improve.

Thanks! I couldn't find a better pic on AR on aerobars yet, so posted like a front view at beginning of the thread. This was also a race where she approached 23mph riding along most of time. Thanks again!
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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Honestly, race pictures usually aren't great for comparisons, since the angles are often different from one picture to the next. If you can, posting a picture of her on the Trek on a trainer, then a picture of her on the Felt on that same trainer would be the best way to compare the two bike fits via pictures. Of course, that opens things up to the "bike fit by committee" that we all know is sooo effective...
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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Hard to judge for sure by the different angles, but based on that front view the AR position looks better to my eye. For example, if you compare where her elbow is relative to her knee, on the AR it is much lower. On the AR, she is essentially doing a mini-mantis, with her elbows a bit below her hands. On the Trek, it is the other way around, with her hands below her elbows. That shrug is probably also contributing to getting her head a bit more out of the wind. On the Trek position it is very exposed and non-aero.

When you said that her fit was based on her road fit, did the fitter at least try to replicate the aerobar position? It sure doesn't look like it to me.

Note that position is really king in aerodynamics. A good position on a road bike with clip-ons is better than a bad position on a TT bike. The bike itself is really not that much drag. Usually a TT bike should let you get into a better position, but it isn't automatic.

ETA: The other position key I look for when I look at my own position is where is the chin. On the AR, her chin looks almost level with her hip bone. On the Trek, it looks a good 4-6 inches above. Again hard to be 100% sure from the very different angles of the pictures.
Last edited by: jbank: Jun 21, 19 14:02
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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Whatever came of her fit and speeds? Is she faster on the TT now or did she stick with the Felt Road w/clip-ons?Does she still have the SC?
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Re: Help: TT/Tri bike (Speed Concept) is SLOWER than road bike (AR3) [vladi] [ In reply to ]
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Hey OP,
Just responding to recommendations for a bike fitter in the area. I live in DC area and was looking for someone to fit me for my new tri bike. Went on Slowtwitch and searched for F.I.S.T. certified bike fitters in my area and initially found out about Race Pace bicycles in Columbia. Multiple calls and emails back and forth to them over several months last summer and they weren’t really responsive (slow returning calls and emails, difficult to get a hold of anyone who would commit to scheduling a time to get fitted... granted it was during the pandemic and they weren’t sure when they were able to allow people in the store for in-person fitting so I gave up). Finally met with Chris Richardson at Bike Dr. Waldorf (https://www.bikedoctorwaldorf.com/...or-waldorf-pg370.htm ). Extremely professional and timely service. Chris spent 3hrs in total with me, asked about prior medical conditions, types of events I am competing in, my current fitness level & FTP as well as competitiveness/goals etc, took measurements and video of me on my old bike fit, showing me videos of my position along with leg, knee, hip angles and recommendations for improving my positioning on my new bike. Looked at my seat position and made recommendations for seat positioning and seat type based on heat map of pressure of where I sit. Put me on a fancy machine that electronically adjusted different angles to see which aero bar drop & angle felt the most comfortable and was the most aero etc. This is all to say that I was impressed! He knows what he’s talking about. Took into account my specific needs, goals and physical limitations. Their store is also a Trek, Felt and I believe Cervelo outfitter so are very comfortable adjusting/ordering parts for these bikes. He mentioned he is planning on opening up a bike fitting specific center sometime this month (Jan 2021) that will be closer to the DC area. I ended up ordering a Project One SpeedConcept through him and should be getting it in in the next couple of weeks. Check him out if you’re still looking for someone for your daughter. I HIGHLY recommend him. Well worth the time and money. Best of luck.
F.I.S.T. Certified fitters in the mid-Atlantic area from SlowTwitch forum: https://www.slowtwitch.com/...ionlist.php?region=2
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