I have always thought that the idea behind zoning was to keep the poor from living with everyone else. I have yet to meet a homeowner who moved from a single family house into an apartment and was happy unless they were 70 years old or above and even then...

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"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

To me, the problem will always come back to population growth. Supply is always trying to keep up with demand. The doors at the borders need to be narrowed considerably and foreign ownership needs to be tightened, Great for sellers, not so much for buyers. When two people in a relationship, both with decent jobs, need to move miles from the CBD because they can't afford it, something isn't right.

I share your sentiment. Though I'm not crazy about gardens (or gardening) it's nice to be able to walk out back and stand on grass. I accept that it's not sustainable for everyone to keep doing this though if the populations keep booming.

What spudone said with the addition of teleworking becoming more and more practical. At some point most people won’t choose where they live because of their careers. They will chose to live near cities because they don’t want to live in the boonies. But some people like the boonies.

It depends on what kind of apartment. I've lived in "American style" apartments constructed out of wood with paper-thin walls and a ceiling that amplified footsteps. I've lived in city high rises with floors of concrete. I loved living in the city.

The problem we have in the US is that most of our city planning is around the "cars and highways" mentality instead of tried and true "walking city" concepts.

That's the problem? People can choose where they want to live? I find that refreshing. And how many people with families really want to live in a big US city? Bad schools, crime... this isn't Paris or Rome or Milan that were talking about. It's Detroit, or Cleveland, or Newark, or LA or Oakland,... give me the suburbs any day.

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"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

Overlords indeed. Many of the developers who were previously in the single family game have now shifted toward multifamily. They really don't give a crap about affordability or quality of life, they just want to make money.

I think that a majority of jobs are performed by people that don't give a shit about affordability or quality of life, which is why climate deniers can exist and prosper and get elected President. And as for the "just want to make money" quote, money is one of the keys to happiness in America. It's not a bad thing, but I am constantly amazed by those that somehow equate making money /having wealth with evil.

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"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

Don't get me wrong, money makes the world go round and that's a good thing. Capitalism might have it's flaws but it's way way way better than anything else humanity has ever tried (funny thing, the first half of Marx's Das Kapital basically hails capitalism and its achievements as a "wonder of the world").

What's not a good thing is regulatory capture.



Look, I work in real estate. I've crossed paths with a lot of big developers. Most of them are an intersection of riverboat gambler meets whore meets Jay Gatsby. Many of them are crooked. Ever see a traffic light somewhere that just doesn't make sense other than to benefit a new real estate development? Cash probably went under the table. It happens more than most would think. There's also an enormous amount of "corruption lite" of people going back and forth between the public and private sector (e.g. being a building inspector then working for a developer, vice versa, working in planning and zoning, then working for a developer, etc.).

In a race between your local planning and zoning board and HUD... it's close for which would be more corrupt. I've often said that HUD is the most useless and corrupt Federal agency we have. It's original intent as an organization was well-founded but now it basically serves as a guarantee the checks of developers and landlords. Tenant protections and tenant protection enforcement in public housing are both laughable and might as well not exist.

Just look at this shit: https://twitter.com/citylab/status/1116830210316488704


Tell me how Hudson Yards, a brand new multi-billion dollar development that will primarily house and cater to the upper class qualifies... in ANY terms... as "distressed urban area"? That map is the manifestation of all that is broken at the Federal, State, and Municipal level.

That's just one example. Stuff like this happens ALL THE TIME and it has for decades but it mostly goes unnoticed.

Again, I work in real estate and I'm all for capitalism. Both have benefitted me enormously. However, I also take the long view. The way developers in the U.S. do business is not sustainable or functional by any stretch... and it's mostly because they've gotten their way and there hasn't been push back. Look developers are very good at getting things done and the market needs them for that purpose. Could you imagine a municipality trying to build a building? Or a series of buildings??? I've seen it attempted. It's horrendously inefficient. However, just like any group, you can't let developers have their way on everything all the time. There has to be public involvement and everything needs to be transparent and above board.

If people want functional cities they need to get involved in the civic process. Show up to planning and zoning board hearings. Demand from your local politicians that said hearings not be one way presentations (more and more municipalities are basically making it impossible for everyday citizens to actually say anything at said meetings). Make planning and zoning an issue for local elections. Most importantly STOP GIVING DEVELOPERS TAX BREAKS. Doing so just offloads the tax burden onto existing properties (it is a zero sum game) which reduces upkeep on said properties which, shocker, just drives the demand for more new development further down the road.

To go with the most overused trope in the LR... I think the problem is your reading comprehension! (lol) Seriously, I don't know how you get to me not liking choice out of what I wrote. Anyway.

Maybe a better interpretation is that I think you have too little choice in the USA right now. You can't live in a Rome a Paris or a Milan type city. You've only got Detroits, Clevelands, and Newarks to choose from (NYC is the notable exception) if you want to live in a city. It doesn't sound like those appeal to you.

I grew up in a small town in rural Canada. My parents owned almost an acre of land. We had a small orchard at one time and a large vegetable garden. Over the years, my father slowly replaced the orchard with ornamental trees. My parents have tried to sell the house and property in recent years, but never found a buyer. My parents knew that if they sold, they would never get anything close to what they had in an urban area. For now, my parents are trying to stay happy with what they have, but they will always be thinking of downsizing in the years to come.

For me, I also want to own a large piece of property like my parents did. I want to have an orchard, a garden, and raise a family on it (similar to my childhood). But I realise that so many kids didn't grow up like I did and so many kids (adults now) can't possible afford anything other than a condo or apartment.

going to help with water too, too much f''g grass.

I was raised in a apartment complex, we shared a huge pool and playground with one other building, around us was 8 more buildings and several town house complexes also with pools and huge playgrounds, there were literally 100's of kids running around playing sports, hide and seek, you name it, there were two malls within walking distance so lots of candy and places indoors to hang out, 3 schools and a skating rink, one school had a indoor pool, ice hockey, football, baseball, tennis and some of the most epic road hockey you've ever seen, and growing up in a apartment also means no snow shoveling no cutting grass and underground parking ( which is also awesome for hide and seek as well) I now live in a house in a neighborhood that needs school buses there are maybe 5 kids on our street, I can't imagine growing up like that, I was so spoiled, seriously if done right apartment complexes can be the best place in the world for a kid to grow up, I know my childhood was awesome and I wouldn't change it for anything.

There is nothing wrong with making money but a lot of people equate their self worth with senseless consumption.

Yes. Rural areas in many places are being de populated.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I always like seeing a good Caddyshack reference applied to a real-life situation. Well done. : )

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"You can never win or lose if you don't run the race." - Richard Butler

I get the attraction to apartment living for certain demographics. However their construction just seems like this explosive shock wave continually driving traditional housing further and further away. There's wanting to live in the core for the walking lifestyle etc. There's also wanting to live somewhat near to the city but still have your personal space. The houses that do remain and avoid the urban infill push become out of reach for all but the fortunate few. It's all about demand. There's too much :)