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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [El Jefe] [ In reply to ]
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El Jefe wrote:
chaparral wrote:
This is still the craziest thing. I mean it just makes no sense. This is in response to the Parkland shootings, where there was an trained and armed officer that was unable to stop it. How do you look at that situation and go, "I know how to prevent this in the future, lets give less trained people guns." How do you possibly come to conclusion?




I think you mis-represent what happened at the Parkland shooting when you say he "was unable to stop it". There will be a trial that determines if he was unable or unwilling.

Here are a few possibilities on how they could come to that conclusion:

THIS is an example of where a school resource officer prevented a possible mass shooting

THIS is an example of an armed bystander shot a gunman From the article "the shooting could have been a lot worse if the bystander wasn't there. No one else was injured."

THIS is another example.

I'm sure you are aware that there are a lot more examples like this that have occurred. Strangely, we don't hear about them much. In the last two above, the individuals who thwarted attacks were "less trained people".

For me and my family, we are okay with our kids going to a school with teachers who voluntarily go through training and are armed.

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Well good thing we don't already have people accidentally firing their guns at school, adding more guns will surely mean less accidents then! I mean teachers will always behave correctly. More guns is clearly the answer.

is that how other countries don't have anywhere near the number of kids murdered at school? Because their teachers are armed? Is that how they fixed the issue?
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
In the old days the strap was enough to keep the kids orderly. Can't wait until some distraught teacher goes on a shooting rage.


What's to stop that from happening now where the program isn't in place?

The real concern is sloppy storage and dangerous deployment. Those can't be entirely mitigated by proper training and screening.

Given the relative rarity of school shootings the odds are not in our favor. Storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. are all much more likely than a shooting happening in that school and then a teacher having the ability and nerve to take down a student.

We have gotten so focused on a few rare events that we are willing to put everyone in danger to combat it.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
El Jefe wrote:
chaparral wrote:
This is still the craziest thing. I mean it just makes no sense. This is in response to the Parkland shootings, where there was an trained and armed officer that was unable to stop it. How do you look at that situation and go, "I know how to prevent this in the future, lets give less trained people guns." How do you possibly come to conclusion?




I think you mis-represent what happened at the Parkland shooting when you say he "was unable to stop it". There will be a trial that determines if he was unable or unwilling.

Here are a few possibilities on how they could come to that conclusion:

THIS is an example of where a school resource officer prevented a possible mass shooting

THIS is an example of an armed bystander shot a gunman From the article "the shooting could have been a lot worse if the bystander wasn't there. No one else was injured."

THIS is another example.

I'm sure you are aware that there are a lot more examples like this that have occurred. Strangely, we don't hear about them much. In the last two above, the individuals who thwarted attacks were "less trained people".

For me and my family, we are okay with our kids going to a school with teachers who voluntarily go through training and are armed.

.


Well good thing we don't already have people accidentally firing their guns at school, adding more guns will surely mean less accidents then! I mean teachers will always behave correctly. More guns is clearly the answer.

is that how other countries don't have anywhere near the number of kids murdered at school? Because their teachers are armed? Is that how they fixed the issue?



Notwithstanding the douche-ness of your attitude, you asked how one could come to that conclusion and I offered you a reply. Many, along with my state's governor, agree that the benefit of having voluntary trained and armed teachers in place to help ensure our kids' safety is worth the risk of a non shooter related incident.

My opinion is this: the issue behind school shootings can't be "fixed". It can be addressed and improved. I'm okay with this measure.

.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [wesley] [ In reply to ]
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wesley wrote:
So, a new interesting question today: If a teacher participates in this program and has a gun, will they now face criminal or civil liability if they choose not to engage in an active shooter situation? (The Parkland Florida do-nothing deputy was arrested and charged recently.)

Not the way the law is written. The way the law is written, they do not have "first responder duties" like those of the police, but, they have to certain immunity if they do engage, similar to the immunity bestowed upon police officers. It is akin to a good samaritin law - you do not have to render assistance, but, if you do, you have certain protections.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
Storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. are all much more likely than a shooting happening in that school and then a teacher having the ability and nerve to take down a student.


Are you stating that as fact or as your opinion? If fact, could you please provide a source?


.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [El Jefe] [ In reply to ]
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El Jefe wrote:
j p o wrote:
Storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. are all much more likely than a shooting happening in that school and then a teacher having the ability and nerve to take down a student.



Are you stating that as fact or as your opinion? If fact, could you please provide a source?


.

In the 2016-16 school year there were 132, 853 k-12 schools in the US (https://www.edweek.org/...tatistics/index.html)

In 2018 there were 24 school shootings resulting in injury. (https://www.edweek.org/...-how-many-where.html)

Of those 24, one was on a school bus when random shooting outside the bus hit him, one a parent accidentally shot another parent while carrying, one a safety officer injured three during a safety lesson, one was a domestic incident in the parking lot, 6 were after hours at sporting events (4 football, 1 each for basketball and track).

That leaves 14 incidents where it is even possible for an armed teacher to have intervened. Now read those 14. . Unless the teacher had prior knowledge, no way they were going to stop the large majority of those, and the details of some/most of them make it even more unlikely(accidental, after hours, etc.).

That leaves 3 or 4. Parkland, Santa Fe, Benton, KY, and Noblesville, IN. 4 incidents in 132,853 schools. There were literally as many accidental shootings (2 students, 1 safety officer, 1 parent) in 2018 without adding in teachers with guns. We would stop more by banning school sporting events. And Parkland shows having a trained person with a gun is not a sure fire way to stop them. Let alone expecting a teacher to gun down a student.

Even if I give the number as 14, you are still looking at an incident rate of around .01%. Are you confident the storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. rate will be at 1/10,000?

Of course we don't "know" because we haven't been dumb enough to do it before. But we know.

ETA - yes school shooting are a very very bad thing. But we have created a mania of fear that far outweighs the danger and we are not getting to what is really behind them.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
Last edited by: j p o: Jun 5, 19 9:48
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
El Jefe wrote:
j p o wrote:
Storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. are all much more likely than a shooting happening in that school and then a teacher having the ability and nerve to take down a student.



Are you stating that as fact or as your opinion? If fact, could you please provide a source?


.

In the 2016-16 school year there were 132, 853 k-12 schools in the US (https://www.edweek.org/...tatistics/index.html)

In 2018 there were 24 school shootings resulting in injury. (https://www.edweek.org/...-how-many-where.html)

Of those 24, one was on a school bus when random shooting outside the bus hit him, one a parent accidentally shot another parent while carrying, one a safety officer injured three during a safety lesson, one was a domestic incident in the parking lot, 6 were after hours at sporting events (4 football, 1 each for basketball and track).

That leaves 14 incidents where it is even possible for an armed teacher to have intervened. Now read those 14. . Unless the teacher had prior knowledge, no way they were going to stop the large majority of those, and the details of some/most of them make it even more unlikely(accidental, after hours, etc.).

That leaves 3 or 4. Parkland, Santa Fe, Benton, KY, and Noblesville, IN. 4 incidents in 132,853 schools. There were literally as many accidental shootings (2 students, 1 safety officer, 1 parent) in 2018 without adding in teachers with guns. We would stop more by banning school sporting events. And Parkland shows having a trained person with a gun is not a sure fire way to stop them. Let alone expecting a teacher to gun down a student.

Even if I give the number as 14, you are still looking at an incident rate of around .01%. Are you confident the storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. rate will be at 1/10,000?

Of course we don't "know" because we haven't been dumb enough to do it before. But we know.

ETA - yes school shooting are a very very bad thing. But we have created a mania of fear that far outweighs the danger and we are not getting to what is really behind them.

So you're using incidents that didn't even happen on a school property? Random bullet hits a school bus is the same as a school approved gun being stored/carried on campus? After hours at a sporting event? Parent shoots another parent while carrying? These are not the same thing and they certainly don't provide support for your argument.

Truth is, we don't know if there is a "much more likely" risk as you put it. I believe we've also created a mania that says schools allowing a trained teacher to carry is a horrible idea. It's not a horrible idea.


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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [El Jefe] [ In reply to ]
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El Jefe wrote:
j p o wrote:
El Jefe wrote:
j p o wrote:
Storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. are all much more likely than a shooting happening in that school and then a teacher having the ability and nerve to take down a student.



Are you stating that as fact or as your opinion? If fact, could you please provide a source?


.

In the 2016-16 school year there were 132, 853 k-12 schools in the US (https://www.edweek.org/...tatistics/index.html)

In 2018 there were 24 school shootings resulting in injury. (https://www.edweek.org/...-how-many-where.html)

Of those 24, one was on a school bus when random shooting outside the bus hit him, one a parent accidentally shot another parent while carrying, one a safety officer injured three during a safety lesson, one was a domestic incident in the parking lot, 6 were after hours at sporting events (4 football, 1 each for basketball and track).

That leaves 14 incidents where it is even possible for an armed teacher to have intervened. Now read those 14. . Unless the teacher had prior knowledge, no way they were going to stop the large majority of those, and the details of some/most of them make it even more unlikely(accidental, after hours, etc.).

That leaves 3 or 4. Parkland, Santa Fe, Benton, KY, and Noblesville, IN. 4 incidents in 132,853 schools. There were literally as many accidental shootings (2 students, 1 safety officer, 1 parent) in 2018 without adding in teachers with guns. We would stop more by banning school sporting events. And Parkland shows having a trained person with a gun is not a sure fire way to stop them. Let alone expecting a teacher to gun down a student.

Even if I give the number as 14, you are still looking at an incident rate of around .01%. Are you confident the storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. rate will be at 1/10,000?

Of course we don't "know" because we haven't been dumb enough to do it before. But we know.

ETA - yes school shooting are a very very bad thing. But we have created a mania of fear that far outweighs the danger and we are not getting to what is really behind them.


So you're using incidents that didn't even happen on a school property? Random bullet hits a school bus is the same as a school approved gun being stored/carried on campus? After hours at a sporting event? Parent shoots another parent while carrying? These are not the same thing and they certainly don't provide support for your argument.

Truth is, we don't know if there is a "much more likely" risk as you put it. I believe we've also created a mania that says schools allowing a trained teacher to carry is a horrible idea. It's not a horrible idea.


.

You are misunderstanding.

Those are counted in the 24 school shootings with injuries. You have to remove those to find out how many could possibly be stopped by an armed teacher. I am saying they aren't the same thing as a school shooting. Not that they are the same thing as an accidental teacher shooting.

Re-read and re-respond if you wish.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
El Jefe wrote:
j p o wrote:
El Jefe wrote:
j p o wrote:
Storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. are all much more likely than a shooting happening in that school and then a teacher having the ability and nerve to take down a student.



Are you stating that as fact or as your opinion? If fact, could you please provide a source?


.

In the 2016-16 school year there were 132, 853 k-12 schools in the US (https://www.edweek.org/...tatistics/index.html)

In 2018 there were 24 school shootings resulting in injury. (https://www.edweek.org/...-how-many-where.html)

Of those 24, one was on a school bus when random shooting outside the bus hit him, one a parent accidentally shot another parent while carrying, one a safety officer injured three during a safety lesson, one was a domestic incident in the parking lot, 6 were after hours at sporting events (4 football, 1 each for basketball and track).

That leaves 14 incidents where it is even possible for an armed teacher to have intervened. Now read those 14. . Unless the teacher had prior knowledge, no way they were going to stop the large majority of those, and the details of some/most of them make it even more unlikely(accidental, after hours, etc.).

That leaves 3 or 4. Parkland, Santa Fe, Benton, KY, and Noblesville, IN. 4 incidents in 132,853 schools. There were literally as many accidental shootings (2 students, 1 safety officer, 1 parent) in 2018 without adding in teachers with guns. We would stop more by banning school sporting events. And Parkland shows having a trained person with a gun is not a sure fire way to stop them. Let alone expecting a teacher to gun down a student.

Even if I give the number as 14, you are still looking at an incident rate of around .01%. Are you confident the storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. rate will be at 1/10,000?

Of course we don't "know" because we haven't been dumb enough to do it before. But we know.

ETA - yes school shooting are a very very bad thing. But we have created a mania of fear that far outweighs the danger and we are not getting to what is really behind them.


So you're using incidents that didn't even happen on a school property? Random bullet hits a school bus is the same as a school approved gun being stored/carried on campus? After hours at a sporting event? Parent shoots another parent while carrying? These are not the same thing and they certainly don't provide support for your argument.

Truth is, we don't know if there is a "much more likely" risk as you put it. I believe we've also created a mania that says schools allowing a trained teacher to carry is a horrible idea. It's not a horrible idea.


.


You are misunderstanding.

Those are counted in the 24 school shootings with injuries. You have to remove those to find out how many could possibly be stopped by an armed teacher. I am saying they aren't the same thing as a school shooting. Not that they are the same thing as an accidental teacher shooting.

Re-read and re-respond if you wish.


Ah yes my mistake.

Here is where we differ: "That leaves 14 incidents where it is even possible for an armed teacher to have intervened. Now read those 14. . Unless the teacher had prior knowledge, no way they were going to stop the large majority of those, and the details of some/most of them make it even more unlikely(accidental, after hours, etc.). "

Of the 14 that happened on school grounds during school hours, I believe more than half of those could have been thwarted by an armed and trained teacher. It's at least possible. We just don't know how likely.


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Last edited by: El Jefe: Jun 5, 19 10:29
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [El Jefe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
El Jefe wrote:
j p o wrote:
El Jefe wrote:
j p o wrote:
El Jefe wrote:
j p o wrote:
Storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. are all much more likely than a shooting happening in that school and then a teacher having the ability and nerve to take down a student.



Are you stating that as fact or as your opinion? If fact, could you please provide a source?


.

In the 2016-16 school year there were 132, 853 k-12 schools in the US (https://www.edweek.org/...tatistics/index.html)

In 2018 there were 24 school shootings resulting in injury. (https://www.edweek.org/...-how-many-where.html)

Of those 24, one was on a school bus when random shooting outside the bus hit him, one a parent accidentally shot another parent while carrying, one a safety officer injured three during a safety lesson, one was a domestic incident in the parking lot, 6 were after hours at sporting events (4 football, 1 each for basketball and track).

That leaves 14 incidents where it is even possible for an armed teacher to have intervened. Now read those 14. . Unless the teacher had prior knowledge, no way they were going to stop the large majority of those, and the details of some/most of them make it even more unlikely(accidental, after hours, etc.).

That leaves 3 or 4. Parkland, Santa Fe, Benton, KY, and Noblesville, IN. 4 incidents in 132,853 schools. There were literally as many accidental shootings (2 students, 1 safety officer, 1 parent) in 2018 without adding in teachers with guns. We would stop more by banning school sporting events. And Parkland shows having a trained person with a gun is not a sure fire way to stop them. Let alone expecting a teacher to gun down a student.

Even if I give the number as 14, you are still looking at an incident rate of around .01%. Are you confident the storage, accident, mistake, theft, etc. rate will be at 1/10,000?

Of course we don't "know" because we haven't been dumb enough to do it before. But we know.

ETA - yes school shooting are a very very bad thing. But we have created a mania of fear that far outweighs the danger and we are not getting to what is really behind them.


Here is where we differ: "That leaves 14 incidents where it is even possible for an armed teacher to have intervened. Now read those 14. . Unless the teacher had prior knowledge, no way they were going to stop the large majority of those, and the details of some/most of them make it even more unlikely(accidental, after hours, etc.). "

Of the 14 that happened on school grounds during school hours, I believe more than half of those could have been thwarted by an armed and trained teacher. It's at least possible. We just don't know how likely.

Snip to remove confusion.

Even if we go with 14, and assume that every one of them are stopped, that means one school shooting for about every 10,000 schools. I assume we are introducing multiple guns into each school and not just one special teacher. With each school and each gun the chances of unintended consequences increases.

We are allowed to disagree. This just seems like a realllly bad idea to me.

And that there are much better places to put our resources than focusing on school shootings. For instance, suicide is the second leading cause of death for 10 - 4, 15 - 24 and 25 - 34 age groups. I would hazard a guess that there are similar issues going on with both school shooters and suicidal students. I'd bet my house that we would save far more kids focusing there.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
And that there are much better places to put our resources than focusing on school shootings. For instance, suicide is the second leading cause of death for 10 - 4, 15 - 24 and 25 - 34 age groups. I would hazard a guess that there are similar issues going on with both school shooters and suicidal students. I'd bet my house that we would save far more kids focusing there.

Well said sir


.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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I'm assuming this law mirrors the sentinel law pioneered by Grady Judd that became the Guardian program statewide that required at least as much training as police. For instance, Judd's program required 12 or 13 hours of firearms instruction, consistent with state police requirements. The guardian expanded that to 19. So long story short, qualified armed civilians were better trained than the police. But I'm sure some will disregard that point.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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I am not a gun guy, I know very little about them. However, I am positive that these teachers will be under trained to use a firearm in a hostile environment.

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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [Ozymandias] [ In reply to ]
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Ozymandias wrote:
I'm assuming this law mirrors the sentinel law pioneered by Grady Judd that became the Guardian program statewide that required at least as much training as police. For instance, Judd's program required 12 or 13 hours of firearms instruction, consistent with state police requirements. The guardian expanded that to 19. So long story short, qualified armed civilians were better trained than the police. But I'm sure some will disregard that point.

That's certainly better than allowing them to carry without such training, but when would be a good time to point out that cops still fuck up and shoot the wrong people semi-regularly (or perhaps shoot the 'correct' person but maybe it could have been avoided)? So using that as a benchmark (whatever rate or probability metric we choose to employ), how much improvement do we expect to see with the higher minimum training hours? Is that 12/13-hour minimum actually a fair representation of how much training a typical cop really goes through as a basis for comparison, or is it likely more on average?

Training should certainly be expected to reduce the prevalence of mishaps per user, but I remain unconvinced that it will balance out the greater likelihood of incidents simply by increasing the number of firearms available at each site.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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It’s happened a time or two. And it’s not surprising you look forward to a teacher going bonkers with a gun.
Hopefully you will get the same joy when a legally armed teacher takes a bad guy/girl down.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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again, it's your country and your business, but if i lived in a placed where my kids' teachers carried guns . . . i'd leave that place. who wants to live like this?

does this happen anywhere else? i mean, i went to school on an army base in war time and we didn't have armed teachers. (we did sometimes have an armed escort on our school bus.) are the teachers armed in beirut? belfast? caracas?

from the outside perspective, this is just bat-shit crazy.

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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [DEEPSEADOC/E-9] [ In reply to ]
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DEEPSEADOC/E-9 wrote:
It’s happened a time or two. And it’s not surprising you look forward to a teacher going bonkers with a gun.
Hopefully you will get the same joy when a legally armed teacher takes a bad guy/girl down.

Have to you credit for coming up with the absolutely most moronic comment I've read in my many years on the LR. A teacher with a gun could be a very dangerous thing if he/she is a bit unstable and had a bad day at work. Guns have never been an issue where my kids went to school, but then we're not in a country that has your same gun culture.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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So, we agree, it’s not the gun, it’s the unstable person. Maybe school districts should vet teachers more thoroughly, you know, to weed out the unstable ones. I am sure the teachers unions here in my state will go along with that.

Please explain “your gun culture” since your the expert on the matter.

For the record, guns have not been an issue at any of the schools my children are attending or have attended either.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [DEEPSEADOC/E-9] [ In reply to ]
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DEEPSEADOC/E-9 wrote:
So, we agree, it’s not the gun, it’s the unstable person. Maybe school districts should vet teachers more thoroughly, you know, to weed out the unstable ones. I am sure the teachers unions here in my state will go along with that.

But we know people are unstable and you can’t really do anything with them since they are human beings so much easier to do something about the guns.

Please explain “your gun culture” since your the expert on the matter.

Our gun culture is that we tend to view guns as weapons designed to kill so they shouldn’t be something you walk around with, unless you’re hunting, and certainly not something teachers should carry to keep children safe, from other people who are carrying guns.

For the record, guns have not been an issue at any of the schools my children are attending or have attended either.

So you don’t have a gun problem after all.
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Re: Florida governor has signed a bill allowing teachers to carry firearms [DEEPSEADOC/E-9] [ In reply to ]
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DEEPSEADOC/E-9 wrote:
So, we agree, it’s not the gun, it’s the unstable person. Maybe school districts should vet teachers more thoroughly, you know, to weed out the unstable ones. I am sure the teachers unions here in my state will go along with that.

Please explain “your gun culture” since your the expert on the matter.

For the record, guns have not been an issue at any of the schools my children are attending or have attended either.

No we don't agree. It's the unstable person with the gun. A very bad combination.

When I mention gun culture this is what I'm pointing towards.


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