I’d bet there are more ppl who cycle not on the roads than the roads. Advent of greenways and such and you get a bunch of ppl who now wont ever touch the road now.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I’d like to see stats on cycling roads vs greenway/trail usage. Of course I don’t think there are a ton of info out there and all “cyclists” get lumped into the same number. But from what I’m seeing in the “real world” is that the best selling bike in our tri store has been a cx/gravel bike. So many bought them that we had to buy out the frames from one of the dealers. The owners were amazed but also made sense, ppl are getting scared off from riding on the road. We’ll have to compare after a year but a tri shop having the best selling bike a cx is always a good laugh.

And it doesn’t even have to be from an accident. Close calls aren’t even part of stats most of the time. Ppl in my area are taking notice and riding differently tjan ever before (more group rides, more off road riding, less solo efforts). Just my n=1

I don’t give a shit if it’s safer statistically now vs the 80’s. I see what the environment in is now.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

That's a good point. And I don't know the data. So n=1, but a group of us went on a 70 mile gravel ride Memorial Day. I'd say about 80% of it was on dirt service roads or park trails. Over 4 hours riding and I bet we saw maybe 10 cars? I wasn't counting, so it could have been more, but really the only time we saw traffic was during the 20% on normal roads. So I wonder if more development of multi-use paths, coupled with more people doing gravel/non-traditional roads riding, is leading to more cyclists but less accidents?

Stats will never be able to distinguish between the two because of so much overlap etc. in your case your 1 ride would be 2 types so which would it go under stats wise? That’s why I eye roll when someone tells me today’s world is so much safer than 30 years ago. Ok cool that ain’t giving me much confidence though.

But in all my years I’ve only had probaly 10 “close calls”. I mean truly “wow I nearly died” and 3 hit by cars. So not even 1 per year. Does that mean it’s “safe”? I think it means exactly that we are saying in this thread. You have to do everything in your power these days to cover your ass so to speak with cars. Ride defensive, ride like a lit Christmas tree, etc etc. so it’s “safe”? Sure I think it’s “safe”. I mean until it’s not when I don’t come back from a ride. Isn’t that the whole gist of it???

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Actually you just see your mind.

The great majority of people believe that violent crime is higher than ever and going up all the time, yet in reality it's less than half what it was in 1990. Similar to cycling safety. It's an invention of propaganda/media.

I see it every weekend where I ride. 15 years ago there wasn’t a single house development where we ride. Now today there’s new developments and more cars on our road than ever before on any route I have ridden in Raleigh.

Is it any more dangerous? Like I said it’s safe until I’m the one that a RIP thread is about. It def has more interactions that’s for sure.


So I’m not saying it’s unsafe. I’m telling you I see it in the real world that I and most ppl where I live have more chances of interactions. Does that mean we won’t get hit? As I said I’ve only had on average not even 1 hit by car/close call in my 19 years on those roads. So all in all it’s “safe”. I just know that it’s spooked a lot of ppl.

Maybe I just need to move where you are but I do like the RTP area a lot. And I don’t think my take on it is a low majority.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Isn't the Raleigh area growing very rapidly? Perhaps because of that growth what your observing is different than the national trends?

I don't really have a frame of reference to compare it to, but I feel safe riding on the streets of Gainesville. I've never had a close call. But cyclists have been killed here. There was a bad one last year around this time. But I don't know how it compares to 20 or 30 years ago, as I wasn't riding then.

Though regardless of how safe I feel in Gainesville, riding non-pavement roads is becoming more of a norm for me when I do ride outside, as it does feel even safer.

Indeed.
Since Al Gore invented the interwebs, we're now able to hear about Bad Things that happen EVERYWHERE, vs. what happens nearby to us in our own home towns, or counties, or states.

This makes it seem like more Bad Things are happening - but it's just that we're all able to hear about more of them, more quickly.

The other thing is, many of these reports of "cyclists" being injured or killed is predominantly People Who Happen To Be Riding A Bike, not avid recreational cyclists.

The most dangerous sports?? In terms of dying?
High altitude mountaineering. BASE Jumping.

The most dangerous sports, in terms of injury potential?
You'll laugh - it's cheerleading & gymnastics.

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float , hammer , and jog

Stats generally when in regards to “cyclists” don’t break it down into usage. (ETA: that means the poor guy riding to work on a huffy is a “cyclist” in terms of stats; as is the mom of 3 riding a hybrid 11mph on greenway never to once ride on roads; seem Muphy’sLaw precious post). Here in Raleigh headline “cyclist hit by car” about a month ago. Turns out it was some random dude just riding his huffy at 10pm at night from his work to his house and ran a light; but he’s a “cyclists” for stat purposes etc)
. So do I think in general “cycling” is safer? Sure but I can show you hundreds of towns across the country that have added greenway/multi use pathways that means you don’t interact with cars. I can almost guarantee that info doesn’t get segmented out, your still a “cyclist”. So you can generally use stats however you want for your side of the argument. But if we are saying it’s safer now than ever before, I can most certainly see why with so many other non-road cycling usage these days.

And yes Raleigh is one of bigger growing areas in country and apparently also has one of biggest greenway systems in the US (according to city of Raleigh of course).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I had a friend who was struck by a car just last weekend at a Century. He’s a hell of a cyclist that was averaging 25mph 80 miles into it. Got clipped by a mirror of a passing driver and
suffered terrible road rash, but he’s alive with no broken bones miraculously. A couple years ago another rider was hit and killed
by a drunk driver at mile 98 of a Century.

Last year a group of cyclists that used to ride with my friend were ran over
and killed. You can either keep digging
your head in the sand or look around and acknowledge reality.

Like BDoughtie mentioned how many pros have been hit. Add Lionel Sanders to the list as to why he doesn’t train outdoors on his bike much at all.

Not responding to anyone in particular. I am 60 years old and have been cycling and following the "tri scene" since the early 80s. I live in the same town/community that I have lived in since college. I have had far more "close calls" in the last 10 years than I ever had prior to that. I have been hit with beer cans, buzzed by trucks, cursed, spit on and have been given the finger numerous times. But the scariest thing I have ever experienced is the cars buzzing by with the driver looking at their phone or texting while they drive. Give me dogs, give me beer cans, blow your horns at me, curse me and give me the bird, but please don't scare the shit out of me by driving by quietly while texting or looking at your phone!

Nobody is suggesting these things don't happen just that our perception that they are happening at an increasing rate is probably distorted. Your post is a good example, 20 years ago I would have never been aware of these incidents.

30,000+ people are killed in car accidents in the US every year yet most of use till get in a car and go to work every day.

30,000+ people are killed in car accidents in the US every year yet most of use till get in a car and go to work every day.

—-

That’s a terrible analogue though. Most people use cars for specific purposes of transporting to and from work- the thing that lets make money so you can live your life as you want.

Riding a bike for many people and I’m guessing every single person on ST is a hobby choice. We don’t have to ride our bikes, we choose to.

If you guys really don’t think it’s changing that’s cool. I would use all you guys talking about now having to ride “defensive” as enough simple proof that we are having to deal with something when we are out there.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I agree that statistics are difficult to interpret properly. But one thing I know is that fear mongering and people's perception of danger has gone way up since 9/11. Yes, based on polls relative to crime stats!

The best guesses for cycling in this country is that it's about 2x more likely to get you killed vs driving (per hour). Motorcycling is *way* more dangerous. In my opinion 2x vs driving just isn't that bad. It comes to 0.425 deaths/million hours for male cyclists and .216 for women. 1 per 2.35M hours for guys, or ~1/200 if you ride 300 hrs/yr for 40 years. And that includes everybody on a bike. Since we all end up dying from something anyway, I'll take those odds doing something I enjoy for exercise, especially since I think my odds are a lot better if I ride defensively and make sure I'm visible. https://www.sciencedirect.com/...ii/S2214140517306035

Regarding your comment on gravel, paths, and greenways, I'd wager the odds of crashing and being injured (and maybe killed) are quite a bit higher even though the odds of getting hit by a car are nil.

https://www.outsideonline.com/...bike-commuter-deaths

The data is what it is. Statistics can be twisted to support one case or another, but deaths on bikes from 2006>2016 have been ~600-800 and fairly constant. A bit lower than the average in 2016 and a bit higher in 2017 (which prompted this article to be clickbait named 'Bike Commuters are Dying in Record Numbers')

It seems like the number of near misses is higher and everyone has a story-perhaps because of the ability to exchange information everywhere so easily and the progress of social media. Still, I don't see huge increases in the overall numbers...yet...

But I’m not fear monitoring. As I said the fact that we have to be lit up like Xmas trees and ride “defensively” sorts proves we are having to deal with something. Again I’m not saying it’s not safe. I’m more saying we have more and more issues to deal with and that I don’t think “we” are exaggerating that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

They work. It obvious when you see one; it gets your attention if your eyes are even pointed in that general direction.

I used to only run a rear light, and I'd only turn that on when it was either raining or the sun was low and I was riding towards it. I considered the bright flashing lights kinda jarring and harsh (which they are) but I got over it...

I think I made the comment in that thread about the cyclist "training" on a busy greenway and killing someone, that we bitch about cars buzzing us on the roads and then we have those idiots who then "buzz" others while "training" on the greenway. I think there is a time and a place that you can train on the greenway (mid morning-mid day weekdays it's pretty low key); I dont think it's on weekends when it's full of ppl walking dogs, grandpa riding his hybrid at 8mph, the mom's walking their hour walk, etc; and that usually means most working folks cant really do much on the greenway in terms of "training".

My riding style has completely changed in the last 5 years. I can count on my hand the number of times I've ridden my bike on the roads alone. If it's not with a group, I will just take it to the greenway or the gravel trails. Greenways during the weekday lunch time hours; trails during weekends.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hello,

I commute almost every day 50km in and out.

The strobing light helps a lot and double/triple validate before every move.

Lucky for me, i have about 20km on cycle path and 5km on road with cars.

Alao have full cycle path going north 50km for long ride

Sure... but you are never going to get in shape tooling along at that speed.

Which is why zwift and other inside trainer options are becoming so popular. Not my preferred choice, but a great addition to training imo. Cuts out the bullshit that accompany some of the outdoor rides have.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This post made me think about all the near misses I’ve had this season most of which I was alone. I use TR in the winter. I’ve felt pretty disconnected with local athletes lately. It makes me almost
wonder if buying a new smart Kickr and getting Zwift might be my best option going forward. I’m very much disenchanted with my local network and it seems like I’ve been doing a ton of solo pursuits. I even do a lot of treadmill at the gym because my local roads don’t have sidewalks or the group runs are a bunch of 10 minute milers. When you’re training alone eventually safety becomes the most important priority.

It turns out that some of the data out there suggests that although a higher number of pedestrians are being killed in car accidents than cycling accidents, this is due to the fact that more aggregate miles are covered by people walking than cycling, and that mile per mile, there are perhaps five times as many cycling injuries as pedestrian injuries, and twice as many fatalities. Cycling crash deaths in the US also increased by 10% last year, while pedestrian traffic deaths increased by 40% over a decade, both probably due to increased driver distraction - so while bikes and bike safety equipment, along with automobiles, are getting better, it would appear that traffic is more dangerous for those not inside vehicles than it was before smart phones became ubiquitous.

Hello runner66 and All,

How many near misses do you get ..... ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/...rate_in_U.S._by_year

and another mystery ..... cyclist fatality number (about 800 currently) in US holds relatively constant on a 3 to 5 year rolling average as does number of injuries ..... why?

Auto fatalities and injuries similar relatively constant .... suicides ..... firearms ......

Is Elon Musk on to something .... is reality a simulation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_triangle





https://www.nsc.org/...eporting-Systems.pdf

http://www.nlcsa.com/...T%20FINAL%202017.pdf

https://www.safetyandhealthmagazine.com/...ining-the-foundation

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster