near the end of the last video is better, but i'm going to wager that saddle is not right for you. you likely feel like you don't have "enough" saddle to sit on.

i struggled a lot with this and eventually went to a Dash stage. VERY comfortable. until you get that point correct, i think your fit will struggle. maybe not in video or on the trainer for a few minutes, but over 2.5 hours in a 70.3, i think your struggle to be comfortable the entire time causing you to adjust your position.

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Merge Multisport Founder & Head Coach
USAT Level 2 - Short & Long Course
Ironman Certified
Brevard, NC

"Later in the video, I try to press lower my chest down. It certainly didn't feel natural and took a lot of concentration to maintain. "

Yea, changing your posture DOES feel weird.

But that actually looks quite a bit better, and Jim's suggestion of moving the saddle back was a good one.

I have this problem and am constantly adjusting backwards on my saddle as I fall off the front end. I know an answer can’t be given with certainty without more information, but I should move the saddle backwards?

How flat are your arms? When I moved to a cockpit with some tilt I immediately noticed I wasn't falling off the front of the saddle any more. Maybe it's just me, but...

I guess I have something to practice on my upcoming rides. I have a lot of muscle memory to relearn.

How far forward is your saddle? Mine was just about maxed out forward. Thinking about it some, seems like my weight distribution was pretty heavily biased to the front. This morning trying a more rearward saddle I noticed that there was less strain on my shoulders.

You are sliding forward primarily because you are using your glutes and hamstrings (force pushing back late in the stroke). These are strong pedaling muscles, but I think the "tri norm" is rely more on the quads, hence the relatively tall forward saddle position, and hips rotated forward. Plus you are pedaling way too fast... what's up with that...? ;)

Things that open the hip angle (torso/thigh angle at the top of the stroke):

Taller saddle.
Forward saddle.
Hips rotated back.
Shorter cranks.

I'm agnostic regarding whether moving the saddle back is "better" than where you had it originally. I suspect you are trying to preserve that hip angle, if you want to rotate your hips and flatten your back, a rearward saddle isn't going to help. It *is* better for taking weight off your arms, but you can solve the shoulder strain issue with proper reach and front end posture. The experts claim that forward rotated hips are the way to go, so...

Do whatever is necessary to make forward rotated hips comfortable and relaxed. Don't worry about pedaling and power output (yet)! Your pedal stroke will need to change.

Not sure if the comment about cadence was sarcasm or not. My cadence is normally around 85-90 rpm as it was when I filmed the video.

I've read your post a couple of times now and I'm struggling to pick up on what you're suggesting.
Are you suggesting that when I press lower to force a flat back, that my hip angle is too tight (Bike is not ok, changes need to be made to open up my hips when low)?
That I need to practice the new posture more to make it natural (bike is ok, hip angle is ok when low and it's just me that needs to get used to the new position)?
That the "right" position will put me into the correct posture with a flat back naturally (hip angle is ok when low, but there's another bike position that will get me there without relearning how to hold my upper body)?

If it's hip angle too tight, which of the 4 things you mentioned would you recommend playing with first?
Taller saddle. Given the ST anthem of "your saddle is too high!" has made me afraid to raise it. I'm ok to do this if the ST police are ok with it. I feel like I'm a natural toe pointer and I don't see a lot of ankle motion when looking at the videos, so maybe a little would be ok?

Forward saddle. I'm open to sliding the saddle and cockpit forward together.

Hips rotated back. Seems like this is the problem I'm trying to eliminate.


Shorter cranks. This seems to be the new ST anthem (your cranks are too long!) Hardest/most expensive to change (currently using a quarq and don't really want to change due to costs).

Na, your cadence is good!

Don't "press lower"! You are doing something to cause your hips to rotate back... stop doing that. It feels natural because you are accustomed to it, but you are probably holding a lot of tension in your low back.

Try just sitting on the bike, and relax your core completely and stretch out. Don't pedal yet! Just get the feel of the posture first. Once you have that, then you can get used to turning the pedals over while maintaining that posture and relaxed core. It will feel weird at first!

I went through this about 10 years ago after decades of having a tight lower back. Like you it felt like I was forcing to flatten out, and it just made things worse. Then one day it clicked. It didn't take long to get used to it.

I'd leave your saddle where it is for now, since it isn't going to keep you from assuming the posture. Once you get that settled you'll be able to find the optimal contact points.

I don't know if your hip angle will be too tight with the saddle position you have now. I left my saddle position alone and got longer and lower in the front, effectively lowering the torso and making the hip angle tighter. But I suspect in order for you to be more "tri optimal" you'll want to move the saddle forward from your latest position and raise it a little. Don't worry about that yet, though.

Got it. I’ll give the just sitting and relaxing a try next time I can sneak away from the family. If nothing else, I’ll add some time doing that before and after each of my upcoming workouts.

Thanks for all of your help. It truly is appreciated.

rruff and others are spot-on regarding what it should feel like to assume a better hip (really pelvis) posture...it's a passive effort, relaxation into the pose, not an active effort. more slouch, less twerk, to end up in more or less the same place.

lately I've been using something in my fits that a yoga instructor client brought to my attention. basically I'll talk the client through a standing version of cat-cow. check out the text and pics here and pay attention to what's happening at the hips.

my version of it goes like this: bend over like you're going to touch your toes but just hang there without reaching for your toes...now begin with cat...this is an overt act, arching your back towards the ceiling (which also rotates your pelvis inwards i.e. sit bones pointed more directly underneath you) ...then simply relax all the muscles you were just using, into something approximating cow (but not actively pushing your belly out or butt backwards or head up), which flattens out the lower back and rotates the pelvis to where your sit bones are pointed out somewhere behind you...as you do this, pay attention to what it feels like at your hips in particular but also your lower back as they move into their final positions. repeat a few times.

visually the difference isn't going to be as pronounced as what you see at the linked page, because we're standing and because we're not trying to assume cow...we're just relaxing completely out of cat. along the way we build awareness of what's moving and where we end up and that it doesn't take effort to get there.


then we go to the bike and do it there. this is where others' comments regarding reach will come in, as you will almost certainly effectively lengthen your torso (from rainbow to flatter) and the cockpit comes back to you...sometimes way back. might need to move your saddle back (cue glute activation discussion) and your relationship with the saddle changes, sometimes to where your favorite saddle isn't your friend anymore because you're not sitting on it the same way.

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Carl Matson

Update:



I've been practicing my posture for the last couple of weeks a couple of minutes at a time on the bike. I've also doing the standing cat/cow that Carl described. It has made me very aware of how horrible my posture is during the day while sitting at my desk at work/table while I eat/sitting in the car/etc. I'm a massive sloucher, so I've been trying to sit straighter and roll my hips off the bike as well.

After "relaxing" into position more on the bike, I was finding it difficult to pedal over the top and the tops of my thighs kept hitting me in the stomach. I tried to remedy this I raised the saddle slightly to get a more open hip angle. Is the saddle too high now? Should I have moved the saddle and cockpit forward together to get a more open hip angle instead?

you need shorter cranks. stop ignoring the elephant in the room.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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You look good to me! Way better than before.

If that saddle height works for you, I don't think it's too high. I wouldn't go forward unless you believe it will solve a problem you currently have. One way to reduce the restriction at the top of the stroke is to practice keeping your toes up (heels down), but it looks like you are already doing that pretty well.

Have you done any long rides in this position?

Nothing over 90 minutes yet and nothing outside. At this point, it still takes a conscious effort to overcome the muscle memory that's been ingrained.

I've also noticed that I can't see the TV in this new position....that needs to be fixed ASAP!

Thank you so much for your help and patience. I owe you a beer or two.

What he said

Don't disagree that shorter cranks might be a better solution, but unfortunately they aren't in the budget at the moment. When I got the quarq, I didn't really consider crank length beyond matching the length that came stock on the bike. Doing it over, I'd go shorter.

I think the last one looks pretty good. Shorter cranks can definitely help some fits/overcome some issues, but they aren't a panacea for everything.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Try lots of very easy spinning and concentrate on relaxing into the posture. It will require different muscle engagement. Best to start slow. I think you are going to see a pretty healthy speed boost once you get it figured out.

Oh, and I'll take a Spaten Optimator. It's my favorite and they quit selling it here...