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Re: Swim portion [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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It would be especially hard to claim that it's about power if I was swimming with just one arm though....

But you understand what you are saying, right? On the one hand, you're saying that the reason that MOP/BOP'ers aren't faster is because they don't have the talent of the faster guys. On the other hand, you're also saying that the reason you got faster was because you buckled down and actually got to work. But you dismiss the "work hard" side when the lifelong swimmers say that's the reason that they're fast (albeit not as fast as they used to be, in most cases), and chalk it up to talent.

But, back to this side, technique matters. So does work, and fitness. Somewhere in there, talent does play a role, but there's no point in talking about it since you can't actually know how much talent you have, and even if you could, there's nothing you can do about it...

ETA - none of the fish on this board make any claims about "do this and you'll go 1:15's" as some sort of absolute number, and I'm hard pressed to think of anyone who scoffs at someone slower. It's all relative to where you're at now. So if you're at 2:00/100 now, make some changes and maybe you get to 1:58's. then 1:55's... I've certainly never said that making technique changes is easy, I don't recall anyone else saying that either.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 22, 19 8:24
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Re: Swim portion [triathlete37] [ In reply to ]
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triathlete37 wrote:
Clark68 wrote:
Wanted to get some guidance on the swim portion of an IM 70.3 . If your a MOP is it really beneficial to try and improve your time ?
Personally due to the distance I believe improvements on the bike/run would be more effective. Thoughts ?

Most likely the swim will either be cancelled or shorted. Triathlon swims are no more that dip your foot in and splash water on your face so I would work more on the bike and run.

That was my season last year. 2 cancelled swims in 3 races...

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Swim portion [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Bottom line - talent matters a LOT for swimming (and run/biking.)

And yes, technique matters too, but you know I'm specifically addressing the comment 'it's all technique'. No, it's not. And it probably matters less than people think once you're past the raw beginner stage.

And I'm also not contradicting myself. Yes, I busted tail to improve by what I feel is a lot for my ability. Busting tail is what made it happen. But I'm so far from a true FOP or competitive swimmer that it's laughable, and no amount of swimming will ever get me there, just as no amount of running will get me from a 39min 10k to a 34 min 10k (have tried it, nope not happening even at 70+mpw running.)

Your expectations are absolutely driven by talent. I would literally be banging my head on the pool deck if I though I could swim as fast as a D1 swimmer or a pro triathlete with the right coaching and lots of volume/intensity, as it's total fantasyland.
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Re: Swim portion [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Bottom line - talent matters a LOT for swimming (and run/biking.)

And yes, technique matters too, but you know I'm specifically addressing the comment 'it's all technique'. No, it's not. And it probably matters less than people think once you're past the raw beginner stage.

And I'm also not contradicting myself. Yes, I busted tail to improve by what I feel is a lot for my ability. Busting tail is what made it happen. But I'm so far from a true FOP or competitive swimmer that it's laughable, and no amount of swimming will ever get me there, just as no amount of running will get me from a 39min 10k to a 34 min 10k (have tried it, nope not happening even at 70+mpw running.)

Your expectations are absolutely driven by talent. I would literally be banging my head on the pool deck if I though I could swim as fast as a D1 swimmer or a pro triathlete with the right coaching and lots of volume/intensity, as it's total fantasyland.

Who thinks that though? Usually it's the opposite... "I'll never be like so-and-so" I see that attitude far more than I see the "if only I had the right coaching I'd be as fast as (insert local D1 stud/studette here.)"

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Swim portion [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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How old are you since you seem to believe that you will never be able to run a 34 10k?

And how much did you improve when you started working hard in the water? I have started working with the local swim coach but we are only talking about what I need to do in terms of technique. I find it hard to work on technique when I go hard (I typically only go faster for a few lanes, then I work harder for the same speed as I go when I go easy), but you seem to believe that going hard is the right way to go regardless?
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Re: Swim portion [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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Schnellinger wrote:
How old are you since you seem to believe that you will never be able to run a 34 10k?

And how much did you improve when you started working hard in the water? I have started working with the local swim coach but we are only talking about what I need to do in terms of technique. I find it hard to work on technique when I go hard (I typically only go faster for a few lanes, then I work harder for the same speed as I go when I go easy), but you seem to believe that going hard is the right way to go regardless?


My fastest 10k is a 38:50, run at age 30, which is 14 years ago. I ran up to 100mpw to get to that level doing a pfitz 70+mpw marathon program with plenty of speedwork, and averaged over 60mpw for several years up to that, including having run 'seriously' since running x-country team in HS (on a really sucky team of no real competitive presence.)

You can just graph out my improvements in running, which suggest a very clear upper limit (asymptote for all the math nerds out there!) of in the 38:xx range for the 10k. I def could not run any more or harder than I was - I was definitely maxxing out my training for my intrinsic ability. There is absolutely no way I can/could have gone 37:xx or lower, even if all the stars aligned.

For swimming, don't take it from me, but from the top coaches who have blogged about AG triathlon swimming like Joel Filliol and trisutto, here's from Joel's top 20 which you've probably seen but it's a good reminder:

1. Conditioning trumps drills. Technique matters, but the way most athletes try to improve technique doesn't work. Get fitter, and your ability to hold good technique improves. It takes a lot of work to develop aerobic conditioning in your upper body. If you think you are already swimming a lot but are not improving, swim more and keep at it. There are no shortcuts.

Last edited by: lightheir: May 22, 19 9:48
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Re: Swim portion [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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Schnellinger wrote:
How old are you since you seem to believe that you will never be able to run a 34 10k?

And how much did you improve when you started working hard in the water? I have started working with the local swim coach but we are only talking about what I need to do in terms of technique. I find it hard to work on technique when I go hard (I typically only go faster for a few lanes, then I work harder for the same speed as I go when I go easy), but you seem to believe that going hard is the right way to go regardless?

That's pretty normal. Some technique work is best done taking your time and going slow. The trick is to not ingrain the "slow" part, only the movement pattern. I'm sure your coach will steer you right (I hope), but one of the key things to do when working technique is to do the drill / technique work interspersed into "normal" swimming. You want to get that movement pattern to transfer.

OTOH, some technique work is really only possible when going pretty hard, but I'm not sure you're at that point yet.

And you're never too old to learn something new. I've been working pretty diligently on fixing a couple of things with my stroke, and last month I went my fastest 200 free as a Masters Swimmer outside of nationals in '15 and '16, those times are from when I was swimming at least twice the volume I am now, and I'm coming off a fairly lengthy break from the pool (2 new kids....)

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Re: Swim portion [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Have you listened to Joel's podcast? He does a lot of stuff that is aimed squarely at technical improvements, but he does it while his athletes are swimming hard, not drills per se, but not just swimming either. Adding drag, using different types of paddles. Paulo Sousa described it as using tools that will force changes to the athlete's stroke. He's also mostly on-deck with a small group of athletes, IIRC, so there's a feedback loop that most triathletes don't get.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Swim portion [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Have you listened to Joel's podcast? He does a lot of stuff that is aimed squarely at technical improvements, but he does it while his athletes are swimming hard, not drills per se, but not just swimming either. Adding drag, using different types of paddles. Paulo Sousa described it as using tools that will force changes to the athlete's stroke. He's also mostly on-deck with a small group of athletes, IIRC, so there's a feedback loop that most triathletes don't get.

You'd better believe I know that Joel Filliol has lots of tricks that get his athletes to improve technique while swimming hard, and it helps.

I also agree that the coach-athlete feedback loop is missing for most triathletes, me included. No doubt I'd be faster with a motivated coach on deck and a bigger commitment to swim on my part.

Doesn't change the reality that for the typical AGer (NOT the 1hr IM swimmer, more like the 1:20+ IM swimmer), just gotta swim more, harder - the technical improvements will come only after that swim base is established. Even Filliol would agree with that.
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Re: Swim portion [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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You (and a lot of us, me included) are in a kind of zone where I don't think drills are particularly beneficial. You know what you have to do, you just have to do it, and be able to do it. I spend a little bit of time on drills, but they're more about getting stretched out and warmed up before getting down to business.

Drills have a lot more value for the folks who are newer to competitive swimming (which includes triathlon). They literally can't take a breath without stopping the stroke, or coordinate arms and legs at the same time. It's not just about fitness, it's about learning how to swim. Drills break a very complex and foreign activity into manageable chunks.

Drills also have a place for the youth / collegiate / post-grad elite level swimmers who are putting in massive volume in the pool. They have the time to spend on them, and subtle changes mean the difference between the A and B final, making the team or not, etc....

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Re: Swim portion [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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If I had a $1 for every time I debate focusing on swimming vs B/R I'd be a rich man! Based on some advice I got on the forum, I jumped on the T26 bandwagon and although I'm swimming more distance than I used to, I'm not really noticing any improvement in speed. I guess based on what the super swimmers are saying this is beneficial from the standpoint that hopefully I'll get out of the water less gassed but I was really hoping I'd be able to get my times down. I've also invested in swim coaching but nothing consistent so I'm guessing I fall back into bad habits quickly. For those of you that have gone from 2:00 to 1:30/better, how'd you do it??
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Re: Swim portion [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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How long have you been doing t26, and are you consistently doing the work?

Don’t expect improvement to come quickly with any program. Sometimes it happens like that, but usually it’s gradual steps.

A large part of what’s happening is that you are re-wiring your brain. That’s a slow process.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 22, 19 12:37
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Re: Swim portion [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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It's been 2-3 mos and I've been mostly consistent. I on average do as much as I can of the 2 "A" sessions before I run out of time (2500-3000 yards) and I get the "B" session in maybe twice a month. I have my first IM at the end of July so I'm hoping to increase my distance in the next few weeks. At around 2:00/100, 2,500 yards takes about an hour.
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Re: Swim portion [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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A couple things - define “mostly consistent.” In swimming, consistency is king. Second, how many times a week are you swimming and what’s the total yardage?

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Re: Swim portion [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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Scottxs wrote:
Clark68 wrote:
Wanted to get some guidance on the swim portion of an IM 70.3 . If your a MOP is it really beneficial to try and improve your time ?
Personally due to the distance I believe improvements on the bike/run would be more effective. Thoughts ?


The swimmers will say yes,......I was a college swimmer and I say no.

Triathlons are a different animal that is a time distance math problem when you boil it down. Once you have developed your swim ability and some endurance it takes 10,000's of meters to swimming to get incrementally faster on what is the shortest leg distance and time wise of any race. Do you have time in your life to swim that much?

You have distance on your side to make up time on the bike and run. If you are limited in training time.....swim MOP, bike and run fast and you can make up a ton of time. If time is the limiter.....you get more bang for your buck focusing on the bike and the run.

This

I am 53 and swim ironman distance in 67 minutes. 3 ironmans same time each. Funny thing is half ironmans are always 34-35 minutes. I do that on 6-7000 metres a week. I suppose I could knock off a few minutes swimming a few more hours a week but could knock a lot more time working on the bike or run. Right now I am ramping up to 8-9000 m a week because I am going to do some 5 k swim races because I like to swim.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Swim portion [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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TXAgeGrouper wrote:
It's been 2-3 mos and I've been mostly consistent. I on average do as much as I can of the 2 "A" sessions before I run out of time (2500-3000 yards) and I get the "B" session in maybe twice a month. I have my first IM at the end of July so I'm hoping to increase my distance in the next few weeks. At around 2:00/100, 2,500 yards takes about an hour.

2-3 months is a very short timeframe to expect massive "new" improvements. It's easier to get back what you once had than to push past previous boundaries.

My understanding of the T26 program (thanks to Triathlon Taren!) is that the first part of the program is really aimed at breaking down and rebuilding your stroke. You won't necessarily see much in the way of increased speed in the first part of the program, that comes later. As to when that comes, I have no idea, but that's how I believe that the program is structured. Settle in for a long term commitment to improvement, and have faith in the process. If you aren't seeing results in 6-9 months, then revisit whether the program is right for you.

You also say you get in as much of the session as you can. That sounds like you aren't finishing them, so to that I'd suggest that if you know you are likely to run out of time, go through the workout beforehand and make sure you hit the parts of the workout that support the goal of that particular practice. I'm assuming that there is some sort of narrative that goes along with each one explaining what the practice is trying to achieve?

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Re: Swim portion [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I'm swimming on average 2-3 times/week. Jason, you're correct that the program does have tutorials and drills as part of the sessions. I know I'm still new to the program and hopefully more time/swimming will help me improve but it sure is frustrating!
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Re: Swim portion [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
Scottxs wrote:
Clark68 wrote:
Wanted to get some guidance on the swim portion of an IM 70.3 . If your a MOP is it really beneficial to try and improve your time ?
Personally due to the distance I believe improvements on the bike/run would be more effective. Thoughts ?


The swimmers will say yes,......I was a college swimmer and I say no.

Triathlons are a different animal that is a time distance math problem when you boil it down. Once you have developed your swim ability and some endurance it takes 10,000's of meters to swimming to get incrementally faster on what is the shortest leg distance and time wise of any race. Do you have time in your life to swim that much?

You have distance on your side to make up time on the bike and run. If you are limited in training time.....swim MOP, bike and run fast and you can make up a ton of time. If time is the limiter.....you get more bang for your buck focusing on the bike and the run.


This

I am 53 and swim ironman distance in 67 minutes. 3 ironmans same time each. Funny thing is half ironmans are always 34-35 minutes. I do that on 6-7000 metres a week. I suppose I could knock off a few minutes swimming a few more hours a week but could knock a lot more time working on the bike or run. Right now I am ramping up to 8-9000 m a week because I am going to do some 5 k swim races because I like to swim.

Except if you are a time crunched athlete your swim is always going to limit your ability to get the most out of your biking. You guys looking at the swim as a "time" benefit are looking at it wrong as it deals with triathlon. You need to get efficient as fuck to make the bike actually better. Not wasted out of the swim.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Swim portion [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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You sound like one of my athletes. We've sorta plateued on his swim volume from "gains" this winter. I had to remind him that we've added bigger blocks of biking and running. But the key that he even admitted, "I'm not trashed" anymore from swims. He can get in his "steady" paced effort and now swim it all day long and it's like "meh" when he's done. A year ago he'd not even be able to do 1 500yd set at the paces I give him to do 3-4 on "distance" days, etc.

So I think sometimes athletes look at only the number and get discouraged if they aren't getting "faster". It's not always about getting faster. It's what it's doing to you overall as a triathlete. You also need to look at what your volume is. If your in a swim block and your getting faster, that makes sense. But if you then put that swim into sorta "maintenance" mode while bringing back bike/swim workouts; you shouldn't see these huge time gains. But what you should see and notice is that your fitness is improving and your recovering quicker.

So be careful when you only look at "I'm not getting faster"...there's probaly a reason why.

ETA: ST's "BryanD" I've coached for nearly 7 years. Met him in college when I was coaching the college team. He was AOS, not very "talented", he started out all kinds of a mess in the water. If he broke 1:55/100yd I'd be shocked. But he wanted to do the best of his ability, so I made him swim a lot. 7 years later (he's kinda taking a break this year from racing due to life), for the past 3 years at any race (he's raced 70.3 events and some locals) he's easily top 2-3 out of the water. I just made him be patient and consistent. No real "breakthroughs" other than the fact that he worked at it. That's the issue I see with many athletes, they think they'll get a coach and suddenly in a month they'll be this new changed athlete. You'll be a new changed athlete if your consistent with anything you do, whether with a coach or not. I think a coach will more easily help move you along faster, but the coach isn't the answer. Working at it is the answer. That's not a fun answer to hear, but that's the reality. Of course ppl come back with "swimming is hardest to get in". And I agree, but then what is it that you want to get out of this. So yes the swim is the weakest link, but unless you are such a bike/run stud it doesn't matter, most AG athletes would benefit overall by getting more fit and efficient in the water. It's just likely that you don't always see how being efficient but not always "faster" in the water actually can lead to a better bike.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: May 23, 19 8:13
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Re: Swim portion [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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TXAgeGrouper wrote:
I'm swimming on average 2-3 times/week. Jason, you're correct that the program does have tutorials and drills as part of the sessions. I know I'm still new to the program and hopefully more time/swimming will help me improve but it sure is frustrating!


Just as another T26 data point... I started in October, but for the first 2-3 months really only was able to fit in 1-2 sessions per week because I also started in a twice weekly masters swim program at the same time. Since February, I have been doing the T26 workouts pretty faithfully (2 A, the C, and the B workout about half the time), and I stopped doing the masters swim program. Current volume is around 15,000 yards across 4-5 swims, per week.

My swim times have definitely improved over that time. I dropped 50 sec in my 1k time trial from January to May, and probably 1:30 in an extrapolated time since October. So my swimming has definitely improved. While I love the T26 program and plan on sticking with it, I do miss having a swim coach on deck as I think there is a lot of value in having that feedback, particularly with mechanics. So that is important, and I'm currently trying to figure out with my schedule how to add that back in.

But honestly, I think the biggest benefit I've experienced to the swim volume I took on over the winter has been an improvement in my overall aerobic fitness. My run times have dropped, even though I'm not even running as much as I was prior to starting swim training.
Last edited by: tanzbodeli: May 23, 19 11:24
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