Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 4:47

Post #26 of 45 (1552 views)

NordicSkier wrote:

Sidewall cut this weekend. Sealant is useless, but the cut isn't that big.
Should be no problem to fix with a bank note, a tube and some air right? At least it will get me home to replace the tire.
Valve out, tube in, bank note in place.
After 25min and covered in sealant, I cannot get the tire back on the rim, even with tire levers.
My wife was not amused at having to pick me up.

I'm going to give road tubeless another shot, but if this happens again, I'm back to latex tubes and non-tubeless tires.

I could be the wheels are just tough... some tubeless wheels are super tight to help with tires staying on. I came upon some Gatorskins with tubes mounted on a Reynolds tubeless wheel while running bike tech last year... wasn't able to get the tire off for that athlete. Only tube/tire/wheel I've not been able to change... ever.

What kind of sealant are you using? I use Truckerco Cream... latex with chunks or rubber in it, seems to seal pretty well for me at least. Works well on both my road bike and mountain bike... run latex on my TT.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 6:54

Post #27 of 45 (1498 views)

I just dont see how road tubeless is any better than running latex tubes with sealant. The Crr differences appear to be so small that its not even worth worrying about.

Now if only the current wide generation of wheels werent all tubeless ready design where tires can be nearly impossible to get on...

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [TPerkin2000] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 7:38

Post #28 of 45 (1482 views)

TPerkin2000 wrote:

I just dont see how road tubeless is any better than running latex tubes with sealant.

1. A primary benefit of tubeless is near-complete elimination of pinch flats, which is a significant percentage of flats. Adding tubes back in brings back all the pinch flat risk. Sealant won't help there.

2. Doesn't seal as well (according to me). But according to Josh P. it does, and he's like 1000x more knowledgeable than me, and I would never recommend someone listen to me over him when it comes to wheel/tire things. Maybe my experiences were situational.

3. The sealant dries up in the tubes. You can maybe get a couple of reloads as long as you're willing to accept running a bunch of dried sealant in a tube. Replacement rate for tubes will be higher regardless, which is a bit of an expensive proposition for latex. Pure tubeless you can just pull out the dried sealant (obviously).

4. Sealant can clog up stems, particularly if you accidentally store the bike stem down. If that happens with tubeless, they're relatively easy to clear out. It's possible, but much more tricky with latex tubes because of the risk of damaging latex as you try to blow out the stem with high pressure air or clear it with a pick.

5. You can fix a nearly flat or even completely flat tubeless flat with plugs without removing the wheel. Don't know for sure, but I somehow doubt plugs work at all with tubes.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 8:02

Post #29 of 45 (1464 views)

NordicSkier wrote:

Sidewall cut this weekend. Sealant is useless, but the cut isn't that big.
Should be no problem to fix with a bank note, a tube and some air right? At least it will get me home to replace the tire.
Valve out, tube in, bank note in place.
After 25min and covered in sealant, I cannot get the tire back on the rim, even with tire levers.
My wife was not amused at having to pick me up.

I'm going to give road tubeless another shot, but if this happens again, I'm back to latex tubes and non-tubeless tires.

I've scanned the thread quite a bit, but couldn't find what wheel you're using? Saw that the tire is IRC Roadlite 25c. Just curious on the wheel.

At first glance, it sounds like it might be a wheel issue. I say that because I remember a few years back, every wheel manufacturer was recommending IRC or the then-new Schwalbe One as the best-fitting tubeless road tires (I want to say they had both figured out an Aramid tire bead that worked tubeless... while Hutchinson was still the biggest tubeless player and using their SUPER stiff carbon beads). There's another thread going on now about a tire fit issue on a (Reynolds) tubeless wheel... which we've seemingly narrowed down to the wheel as the issue, and won't seem to work even with common tube-type tires.

The thing from this thread that puzzles me is the seemingly common problem of pinch flats. I honestly think I've had maybe one ever. Are people running SUPER low pressure, or just not pumping up every ride? I run 23mm tires at about 100psi, 25's at ~85, 28s at ~70, and 32s at ~60. Note those are all actual measured tire sizes, because wide rims really change things (i.e. 23mm labeled tire on a fat rim might inflate to 25-26mm). I'm close to 200 pounds, no tube pinch flats.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [trail] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 8:03

Post #30 of 45 (1461 views)

For those 1/10 punctures you mentioned that go completely flat. Could something like Dynaplug work so you don't have to put in a tube into the tire?
Or you need to put a tube in because the hole is so big that a plug will not work?
So, in around 1/10 of the punctures you've faced with tubeless neither sealant or plug worked, so only solution left is to put in a tube?
What kind of experience have you got with GP 5000 TL?

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [trail] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 8:05

Post #31 of 45 (1459 views)

trail wrote:

TPerkin2000 wrote:

I just dont see how road tubeless is any better than running latex tubes with sealant.

trail wrote:

1. A primary benefit of tubeless is near-complete elimination of pinch flats, which is a significant percentage of flats. Adding tubes back in brings back all the pinch flat risk. Sealant won't help there.

I run high enough pressure in my race wheels that pinch flats have never been an issue. Even with 28s at 75-80psi I'm not getting pinch flats, so i dont buy that the majority of flats are pinch flats with tubes.

trail wrote:

2. Doesn't seal as well (according to me). But according to Josh P. it does, and he's like 1000x more knowledgeable than me, and I would never recommend someone listen to me over him when it comes to wheel/tire things. Maybe my experiences were situational.

Ran sealant in tubulars for years, never had a single puncture that went completely flat while doing so except for sidewall-cut blowouts.

trail wrote:

3. The sealant dries up in the tubes. You can maybe get a couple of reloads as long as you're willing to accept running a bunch of dried sealant in a tube. Replacement rate for tubes will be higher regardless, which is a bit of an expensive proposition for latex. Pure tubeless you can just pull out the dried sealant (obviously).

Slime takes up to 2 years to dry out. I typically add more sealant every 6 months to a year. 1-2 years is more than enough life to expect out of a tube. The cost benefit and ease of tubes wins here for me.

trail wrote:

4. Sealant can clog up stems, particularly if you accidentally store the bike stem down. If that happens with tubeless, they're relatively easy to clear out. It's possible, but much more tricky with latex tubes because of the risk of damaging latex as you try to blow out the stem with high pressure air or clear it with a pick.

If a vale core is gummed up just replace the valve core.They cost less than a dollar and takes about 1 minutes to do so.

trail wrote:

5. You can fix a nearly flat or even completely flat tubeless flat with plugs without removing the wheel. Don't know for sure, but I somehow doubt plugs work at all with tubes.

There are plenty of posts on here that discuss the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of using plugs. Tossing in a new tube is pretty easy, so I'll give you a wash on this one.

As many have pointed out road tubeless seems like a solution searching for a problem.

1: Tire changes in general are more difficult with tubeless - with latex tubes I can change tires as often as I want with zero sealant mess and seating issues to deal with.

2: Practically no Crr benefit with latex vs tubeless setup

3: No rim tape issues to worry about with tubes as long as you have a decent rim strip

If you are happy with road tubeless thats great. I just dont see it as being any significant advantage over the current state of clincher tires and tubes.

Last edited by: TPerkin2000: May 22, 19 8:16

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [TPerkin2000] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 8:40

Post #32 of 45 (1424 views)

Hey, you're a tuber. Not one of us. You're one of them. I'll wave to you one the side of the road as I ride by from time to time. :)

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [gregk] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 8:45

Post #33 of 45 (1419 views)

American Classic Victory 30's.
Picked them up on a blowout sale last year on PBK I think.

I found the tires hard to get on initially, but not THAT hard.
But, on the side of the road, covered in sealant, with a tube inside... not ideal.

My buddy said it took him about 10min to get his 5000 TL's on the same wheel set, so I'll see.
I'll keep the IRC Roadlite on the front.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 8:45

Post #34 of 45 (1418 views)

pabloarc wrote:

For those 1/10 punctures you mentioned that go completely flat. Could something like Dynaplug work so you don't have to put in a tube into the tire?
Or you need to put a tube in because the hole is so big that a plug will not work?
So, in around 1/10 of the punctures you've faced with tubeless neither sealant or plug worked, so only solution left is to put in a tube?
What kind of experience have you got with GP 5000 TL?

I use Dynaplug (and have used other types of bacon), and have successfully used them when it goes completely flat. But my general practice is to just put in a tube if it goes all the way down. By that time all the sealant is usually gone, and plugs depend on a bit of sealant. I'd put plug success at like 90% when not flat completely and maybe 50% when it's all the way flat.

Yes, roughly about 1/10 punctures, I'll need to be put a tube in. (In about 3 years of personal data).

I have not tried the 5000TL yet, but really want to. My problem is I have a built-up personal inventory of Corsa Speed (race) and Hutchinson Fusion (training). I think both of those could be replaced by the 5000TL, but haven't tried it yet.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 8:56

Post #35 of 45 (1394 views)

NordicSkier wrote:

American Classic Victory 30's.
Picked them up on a blowout sale last year on PBK I think.

I found the tires hard to get on initially, but not THAT hard.
But, on the side of the road, covered in sealant, with a tube inside... not ideal.

My buddy said it took him about 10min to get his 5000 TL's on the same wheel set, so I'll see.
I'll keep the IRC Roadlite on the front.

Interesting. For what it's worth, I reviewed their Argent wheels a few years back and really had trouble with tight tubeless tires (say that three times fast). I found out during the process that I wasn't supposed to use any Hutchinson tires - after I had already installed them and slightly damaged one rim doing so. They recommended IRC and Schwalbe as the best-fitting tires.

I also had a very tough time with an AM Classic MTB wheel. I could get the tire on the wheel, but it was a bear to get seated. The dropped center channel of the rim bed wasn't low enough, combined with a bead shelf that was too high. Had to use a LOT of soapy water, and over-inflate the tire to get it seated. It was one of those times where I used ear plugs and safety glasses during inflation.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 9:53

Post #36 of 45 (1347 views)

joshatsilca wrote:

The ONLY reason to ride tubeless on road and at road pressures at this point is so you can ride a CorsaSpeed TLR or GP5000.. the 2 lowest Crr tires we've ever seen/tested.

Josh, any idea how the Corsa 2.0 compares to the Corsa Speed 2.0?

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 9:55

Post #37 of 45 (1338 views)

ZenTriBrett wrote:

Road tubeless just isn't there yet and sometimes I wonder if the pressures are too high for it to ever become reasonable.

What a lot of people dont know, is that there is a significant difference in different types of sealants. Road tubeless requires a much faster acting sealant due to the high pressures...A sealant that can locate and "plug" the hole before 1 revolution is complete.

If you use a slow acting sealant in this situation, your experience may not be good. Chances are you wont lose all pressure (and therefore stay on the bead) but you likely will need to stop to add air. A fast acting sealant can seal most debris punctures with 5-10psi loss and many times be unnoticeable.

For the situations of being in the middle of nowhere - carry a tube, and maybe a dynaplug...or if truely in the middle of nowhere, bring another tube or just change tire setup for that ride until you gain confidence in your specific rim/tire combo. You arent gonna care about the speed on that type of ride.

Last edited by: GatorRacer: May 22, 19 9:56

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [lanierb] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 9:59

Post #38 of 45 (1331 views)

lanierb wrote:

trail wrote:

Geek_fit wrote:

I run 25s at 80 PSI and I don't even notice the chip seal around my area anymore. I've not had a flat in years. Except for when I use my wheels with tubes.

Yeah, I tried running 80 PSI with latex tubes, and it was a pinch-flat-nado. There was one crit where I kept getting forced by the pack into the same damned pothole (which wasn't that bad), and I went to the wheel pit 3 times before the officials had finally had enough and kicked me out of the race. That was the last time I attempted anything under 95PSI with tubes.

Hmm. I'm 180lbs and I run 80psi front / 90psi rear every day on 25s (55/65 on 28s on my gravel bike), ride around 13k/yr, Cat 2 road racer who prefers racing shit roads, gravel race, TTs etc, ride my road bike (with 25mm racing tires) on single track pretty much weekly. I use latex tubes on all my non-MTB bikes (gravel bike too), and as far as I can tell I pinch flat less than once per year on average. I think latex is very very hard to pinch flat because it is so resilient.

I've got 20lbs of body weight on you.

I tried latex tubes (never in a race) and I popped 3 in a month and said screw it.

You pinch flat once a year...I used to do it 3 times a year. Now I never do it. So, problem solved for me.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [Geek_fit] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 10:36

Post #39 of 45 (1308 views)

I've been running tubeless on gravel, MTB and fatbiking for a few years now. On the road, this year I moved to GP5000 28s tubeless at about 80psi. Holy crap: comfort, speed, grip in one package. Not to tempt fate, but I haven't flatted the tubeless setup all year after formerly running a flat a month with tubes. This could all change tomorrow but for now I'm really liking this setup.

Sidewall cuts are indeed the bane of any tubeless setup but (again, not to tempt fate) I've had one sidewall cut in the past five years. They are rare. Also, sidewall cuts often are un-bootable and ride ending regardless of your setup.

Last edited by: hiro11: May 22, 19 10:48

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [trail] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 19 14:21

Post #40 of 45 (1232 views)

I have been on road tubeless for nearly two years and not a single flat. And the roads in Sonoma County where I live are crap. I first ran Spesh 2bliss rubber but switched a few months ago to Conti 5000TL on my Roval CLX 50 rims. Run about 75 psi but could probably go lower. I do carry a Dynaplug as well but have never used it. Only issue i ever had is hitting sharp piece of metal that slashed the tire. I admit i called the wife for ride since i was five miles from home. That is when i switched from Spesh to Conti tires...size 28.

I have noticed the TL's seem to lose air faster than the Spesh. Over a week, they might lose 5-10 PSI but no big deal. Now i have a big tube collection just sitting in my garage...guess i will give them away.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

May 23, 19 4:03

Post #41 of 45 (1139 views)

Good call going back to tubes. However, the 5000’s are very tough, on Enves especially. Specialized tires on the specialized rims are fantastic to change.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [TPerkin2000] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 19 7:04

Post #42 of 45 (1022 views)

Today, enve 7 front, gp4k 25 mm, 80 psi. Pinch flat.

Never had a pinch flat on tubeless, and, just to jinx it, never had a flat sealant didnt take care of.

Only issues i have with tubeless are initial setup with some wheel + tire combos just being difficult, and if using wheels where too much of sealant has dried out.

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [jakesdk] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 19 7:36

Post #43 of 45 (1010 views)

Was your tube latex or butyl? I'm specially talking about latex tubes and pinch flats are far less common with latex. A 25mm GP4000 measures 27mm+ on the Enve 7 rim. I've ridden that exact combo for several years and never had a pinch flat at 95 psi with Butyl or Latex.

I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm sure everyone has negative experiences with each system. Personally I've had more negative issues with tubeless set up (not seating, not sealing, not able to fix a flat on the road ending a ride) than I've ever had with tubes, so for me its just not worth it at this time.

Last edited by: TPerkin2000: May 24, 19 7:53

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [TPerkin2000] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 19 7:43

Post #44 of 45 (1004 views)

Butyl

Re: Tubeless road. FAIL. [jakesdk] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 19 8:06

Post #45 of 45 (982 views)

I thought so, I had the exact same thing happen to me on an Enve 8 the first time running butyl tubes in GP4000s at around 85psi. Its just too low for that tire and butyl.

I only run sealant in my latex tubes at 105psi with 25mm tires for racing. Never had a pinch flat doing so. Butyl is a different story as its far less elastic. I wont go below 95psi on 25mm tires with butyl. With 28s 75-80psi seems to be okay. I've definitely had a few pinch flats with butyl though.

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