Visually, that initial fit isn't bad. There's opportunity for additional improvement (drop the cockpit a couple of cm, add another cm of reach to the armpad position, get Zipp EVO extensions or the 51 Speedshop extensions for more rise and better ergonomics), but you can be confident the fitter who did that is competent.

You may very well be on the wrong saddle, but raising the cockpit and lowering the saddle as your new fitter recommended seems to be counterproductive, in my opinion. And being "terribly inflexible" doesn't matter at all. Basically, I think you're off into the weeds.

Lots of bike fitters are intent on making bike fit way too hard. They want it to be some sort of medical exploration to justify their value, and comments suggesting inflexibility is limiting is a perfect example of that mindset. For 99% of the riders out there, bike fit is simply about reproducing an orthodox position within an acceptable range based on a rider's physiology and morphology and finding the equipment that supports that position comfortably and effectively.

I've seen a number of presentations from bike fitters in educational environments that spend the entire time talking about all the exotic things they did to fix the person who dreamed of riding across Asia on their Kestrel Talon but was missing their left knee joint and had seven toes on the right foot. These fitters love complex solutions so they turn every bike fit into an elaborate problem that they need solve. They educate other fitters to love the same and these fitters tend to produce tons of terrible bike fits.

Maybe yours is an example of an edge case problem. But my quick judgement from the picture you sent is that you are pretty normal.

---

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

As Trent said, your first fit is fine. My only comment is that your frame is one size too small.

Saddles are tricky... there's a saddle for every person, and there's also a saddle for every position that said person might ride. IOW, what feels good in one position might not feel good in another position, and a saddle you had previously discarded as being uncomfortable might now work in that new position.

Another thing about saddles is that there's a certain amount of coaching that has to go on as to how to sit on them. Depending on what you're doing with the front end, saddles can be made to be more comfortable. Trent alluded to it, but there are ergonomic things you could be doing that you're not that might help. I guess that's another comment about your pictured fit.

As a tangent, I'd reconsider your thought process re: flexibility (as Trent alluded to) and positions for courses. My current thinking is that the longer it is the lower you go, and the shorter it is the higher you go... the thought process being that for an Ironman you're out there for *so* long the aero effect is magnified and because you're pushing at a relatively low % of FTP you can afford to do that... not all watts are the same. If you're not competitive you go for whatever is most comfortable for all distances, and a lot of times lower is more comfortable, your saddle issues aside

So keep trying saddles... PN 1.0, PN 3.0, Fizik Mistica, BiSaddle (and all of the options its adjustability allows), etc. Keep trying until you find one that works.

Finally, I'm not sure why you're discarding the idea of buying a new bike.... if the new bike makes you happy and you can afford it, go for it. You'll feel the same on it as you do your current bike.

Eric

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Forgot to ask... are you wearing bib shorts? Doing most of your rides on the trainer? You might consider those things as well in addition to the saddle.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I had the same problem a while back only to discover I was on a frame that was one size too small. Got a new bike the right size and a lot of problems went away.

Thanks all - some very interesting comments, and actually helps a bit to be told that one doesn't look too bad.. Will make a point to get something of the current fit tomorrow.

Saddle history: initial fit was an adamo road. Hated it for the first 4 weeks, got used to it and rode it to death. Had a couple of dalliances with cobbs, but they were never as good as the road - I'd never have described the road as 'comfortable', but entirely bearable. Padding fell out the side of one of the nose prongs eventually, and they weren't available anymore.
From there bought a PN I think - never got that to work. Tried a bontrager hilo, awful.. someone put me on a specialized sitero, which was fine until last year, now I seem to be having a bad time with it. Tried a specialized power (nabbed off gf's bike), find it flares out too fast. Have a PR 2.0 which I've been trying to find comfort with (based partly on the slowtwitch saddles you are choosing article).. not really succeeding there. Not sure what to try next, theory was that going to a saddle pressure thing would steer me in a direction there, rather than raise questions on the fit.

I *am* wearing bib shorts mostly (pad's the same in them as in my skinsuit and my trishorts are worn out, must buy new ones).. and I do do a lot of trainer time, but it's still properly problematic on the road.

REALLY interesting/surprised to be told I'm on too small a frame, never had that before.. can I ask why?

I'm sure I'll come back to the idea of a new bike, but I feel like it's a huge risk buying something higher end and shiny while I don't seem to have a position I can ride in..

Reason *to* change is almost pure vanity - I doubt it'll make me any faster, but I can afford something new, and I've had the P2 a long time.. why not? I was almost ready to go for a P5(six) until they brought the P5D out - seems that's gone in the wrong direction for me - I don't fit long and low. Can't really 'want' a P3x, beam thing is just a bit too out there, first world problems and all! Doesn't have to be a cervelo either, I fancy a canyon, but probably too long/low again. Speed concept? I guess there are plenty of options..

Looks like you are on a 2010 - 2013 P2?

What size is the frame 54?

because of all the spacers... and because you're not as long as you could be

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

So is it fair to assume the issues roughly translate as saddle higher = saddle discomfort, saddle lower = leg discomfort/power difficulty, rearwards saddle makes it works, forwards saddle helps?

If so, is this a good example of where shorter cranks could potentially be very useful and apart from the saddle comfort side of things also 'unlock' a longer/lower front end? It strikes me that crank length is the one thing that hasn't been tried even though the OP mentions wanting to try them.

I ask mostly because the fundamental issues are a similar story that I'm chipping away at and would like to understand better. But also mostly because of this...:


FWIW... I also thought the initial pic looked pretty decent but didn't want to comment until those with real knowledge pitched in!

Two peanut gallery comments
- the initial feeling of “lack of power” and “sore quads” might be normal. I usually feel like this when I come back to my TT after 10months of only road bike
- I would cut the steering tube :)

Also, depending on the saddle, the pad in your shorts can have a noticeable impact. Try different thickness pads with saddles. The more padding the saddle has, the less I need in my shorts. Too much shorts padding and too much saddle padding is not comfortable at all.

I have also had a fit from that fitter.
It is super comfortable but perhaps not the most aero.

Regarding the saddle, I can't ride my TT saddle with padded bib shorts, it is very uncomfortable, but works a treat with tri shorts.

OK. Spacer stack I totally get. Not sure I've ever thought I wanted it longer.. I've a 100mm stem (has been shorter in the past), and saddle is as far forward as it can go. If anything I usually feel like I want to pull my elbows back to almost touch my knees. Could be that I'm doing it wrong tho.

Here's a pic of what it looks like now - may cover a couple of things you and trent allude to: Bars rotated a bit upwards. I've also gone to a much wider pad width since about 6 months after I got the bike - elbows shadow knees. Main reason for that was that keeping my elbows close was killing me, I'm pretty broad.. That required a bit more spacer, and I'd gone up 1cm at the front as well as down 1.5cm after the most recent saddle / fit discussion that prompted this thread! Figured I'd at least try his suggestions. I also tilted the saddle nose down a smidge today.. always regarded as an absolute no-no, but it seems to help. Made 2hrs on the turbo this evening.

Also borrowed my g/f's 165 cranks. Can't say whether it was a forward step or not, felt a bit like pedalling a clown bike.

Took some video too. Not great quality, first time I tried that. Overall it looks like a bit of a s*** show to me, but maybe I've been told I've got it all wrong too many times!
with 165's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE6tye7lfXw
with 170s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqmL7aZDJDc

Criticism was: too much toe point/over extending knee with the saddle up (less so with bringing the saddle down), and am rocking all over 'cos I can't close my hip (tight hamstrings) which causes problems with a low saddle, I have too much round in my lower back (hamstrings), and need to flatten that & rotate pelvis forward, and drop my torso between my shoulders more (bringing my chest down towards the pads).



MrTri123 - yup, 2012 and a 54cm.


Yes, pretty much, and probably.. I hadn't thought I'd need anything less than my current 170's, but mr fitter was very much keen on short cranks as he thinks I'm wanting to sit too high because I can't close my hip angle. Nabbed the gf's for my turbo this evening. surprised how different they feel, not sure if it's a positive or a negative.

pad comments noted.. I'll definitely treat myself to a fresh set of tri shorts and give it a go. Finally worth mentioning that I've not been off the TT - it serves on the turbo in the winter, and I try to keep a decent amount of time on it, not suddenly switch from the roadbike when a race nears. Oh, and I can put down a good chunk more power on the roadbike - probably 15w or so.. ballpark, I take that to be fairly normal.

I’m looking to buy a 2010 - 2013 54 P2 frame and wheels if you might be interested in selling

I see said you were looking for a new bike

I have a 2018 never riden 54 P5-Six I could swap with you plus cash

Let me know

I like you better on 165s

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

To add to Eric, think about it like this. The bike frame will always be more aero than spacers so the goal is, from an aero perspective, to get rid of spacers if you can. If I remember correctly Dan wrote a piece on this many moons ago where he talks about this.

---

---

Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset

This one?

Or another one

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...r_Ideal_P5_4921.html

Same here. I have a Sitero on my QR, and with any of my standard shorts the thicker padding gets bunched up and starts chafing. The thin pads on my Zoot tri shorts never do this...

---

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

So, after 2hrs on the turbo friday, close to PB 20min power after treating sat's sprint tri as a threshold test, and 4hrs of solid aerobar time on sunday, I think I can say I'm back in business on the saddle front at least :) Suspect a compounding of small fixes / issues:

Seat height is a bit lower. For the original fit, all those years back I was using 'my first tri shoes' and old look delta pedals. These days keo blades and carbon soled lakes. Dug out the old stuff and there's nearly a cm less stack in the current combo, take that out and we're in the ballpark - a bit up from the most recent advice, but close.
Small downward tilt on the saddle - maybe 5 degrees
Tri shorts.. tatty old ones at the weekend, but a new pair of the same ones bought.

95% decided to get 165 cranks, just wavering a bit because it's not just cranks, but a quarq and changing the cranks is so damn expensive I may as well buy a new PM and sell the old one..

Still not what I'd call plush, but I'm not bleeding and it's definitely workable.. Will most likely look to try some different saddles also. Considering that a massive win from where I was a week ago :)

Wrt the earlier (Eric) 'lower - more comfortable' comment, saddle aside I tend to find the tops of my shoulders (traps?) get pretty tired/sore after >3hrs. Isn't going lower going to make that worse, or am I blaming the wrong thing?


Finally for sizing I guess that's another thread. For example the (older) p5 fit solver seems to suggest that with a 640stack/450reach I'm solidly 51 with a high V, which doesn't make sense to me. If I can live with dropping the front 2cm and adding 1cm of reach as trentnix suggested, I'd just squeak a 54 and a low V, but that doesn't fit with Eric's comments - I'd need a lot more reach to ride a bigger frame than the 54. Perhaps the p5 (or it's aerobar?) flat doesn't suit me.
Oh hang on.. that's Centre pad and my number is Back.. so I could ride a 51 high with the pads way out, 54 high somewhere in the middle, or 56 low with the pads way back. And a speed concept M or L. Yup. This makes my brain hurt!