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Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again!
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Just woken up to the news that Kipchoge is going to have another shot at a sub-2 marathon later this year! Here's the executive summary:
  • Backed by Team Sky saviour and Paul Weller-lookalike Sir Jim Ratcliffe and Ineos
  • Scheduled for September/October 2019 in London, UK
  • "Looped Courses" are still being evaluated
  • Early indications suggest that again it won't conform to IAAF-record protocol
  • Jim Ratcliffe currently looking for UK manufacturers of extremely large clocks with experience of mounting them on automobiles.
I'm sure there'll be plenty of groans and sighs, but I for one am very excited about this! As a native Londoner, I'll be interested to see the route options that they consider; maybe he'll just be doing laps around Regent's Park on a Saturday morning with the rest of us?!

Edited to add some links:

News article on BBC
Official Twitter feed for the attempt
Last edited by: awenborn: May 6, 19 0:15
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [awenborn] [ In reply to ]
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awenborn wrote:
Just woken up to the news that Kipchoge is going to have another shot at a sub-2 marathon later this year! Here's the executive summary:
  • Backed by Team Sky saviour and Paul Weller-lookalike Sir Jim Ratcliffe and Ineos
  • Scheduled for September/October 2019 in London, UK
  • "Looped Courses" are still being evaluated
  • Early indications suggest that again it won't conform to IAAF-record protocol
  • Jim Ratcliffe currently looking for UK manufacturers of extremely large clocks with experience of mounting them on automobiles.
I'm sure there'll be plenty of groans and sighs, but I for one am very excited about this! As a native Londoner, I'll be interested to see the route options that they consider; maybe he'll just be doing laps around Regent's Park on a Saturday morning with the rest of us?!

Edited to add some links:

News article on BBC
Official Twitter feed for the attempt


I haven't had a chance to read the links yet but I hope they do a documentary on this. I loved the Breaking 2 documentary.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [awenborn] [ In reply to ]
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I loved the breaking 2 documentary and was really interested in the previous attempt. For me he is so close he needs to make it in a race not some scientifically concocted experiment that does not count. Having said that I think Eliud is probably the GOAT at marathon running whether he ever breaks 2 hours or not.

I think the best way to break two hours is not to look at shoe technology, but look at track technology. If you could build a track out of the right material it would have a greater regenerative effect and energy return than the shoes have and he would be there. Hell you could even do it barefoot with a track like that. It would be incredibly expensive and would look just plain ridiculous in the record books though.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder if this will be a tie up with Team Ineos (nee Sky)

In that the cycling team will do their "marginal gains" stuff that Kipchoge (and by default Nike) didn't

One of the things that Sky pioneered early on, was training cyclists "like" Swimmers. It was completely out of the box for Cycling. I wonder if some fresh thinking looking at Marathon will be the answer. Kipchoge tends to run in flapping tops. Will they look at skin suits? (potentially illegal) Or perhaps make him run in a Trisuit? Longer aero socks?

Wil they take a more detailed look at his nutrition and watts per Kg?
Will Nike step up with a completely bespoke to his weight Vaporfly 10% where the carbon plate is specific to him and provides even more spring but will only last 30miles before being toast


Nike (from Breaking2) didn't appear to look at much more than having a pace car with pacers, and using their new shoes

Have to say that a specific run surface probably breaks some IAAF rules. But Sir Jim Ratcliffe is Britain's richest man. So could he potentially re surface a thin 1m wide strip covering 26.2 miles of Berlin (or the marathon course in Doha - Though I guess the Qataris would happily pay for that if a wold record was set there) all the way round to be absolutely perfect? That way it's available to all runners. And would be record eligible?
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [Race1] [ In reply to ]
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Race1 wrote:
So could he potentially re surface a thin 1m wide strip covering 26.2 miles of Berlin (or the marathon course in Doha - Though I guess the Qataris would happily pay for that if a wold record was set there)

He loves Berlin so I think that would work. Qatar would be a tough ask though. Look at the problems created by putting the world cup on there. The place is just so hot, humid and less that ideal for athletics. Laying a special strip of road through Brandenberg Gate probably won't work either - its quite a special place with historical significance.

Will be great to see how this attempt plays out.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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For me he is so close he needs to make it in a race not some scientifically concocted experiment that does not count//

I think people need to think about this like the hour record in cycling. HE has already shown himself to be the greatest marathoner of all time, so like the bike racers, time to put up a totally separate time record to finish off his career..
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
For me he is so close he needs to make it in a race not some scientifically concocted experiment that does not count//

I think people need to think about this like the hour record in cycling. HE has already shown himself to be the greatest marathoner of all time, so like the bike racers, time to put up a totally separate time record to finish off his career..

Agree.

I find this so amazing to watch. Already looking forward to it
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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earthling wrote:
Race1 wrote:
So could he potentially re surface a thin 1m wide strip covering 26.2 miles of Berlin (or the marathon course in Doha - Though I guess the Qataris would happily pay for that if a wold record was set there)


He loves Berlin so I think that would work. Qatar would be a tough ask though. Look at the problems created by putting the world cup on there. The place is just so hot, humid and less that ideal for athletics. Laying a special strip of road through Brandenberg Gate probably won't work either - its quite a special place with historical significance.

Will be great to see how this attempt plays out.

Good point on the heat of Qatar.

Like the World cup, run at night?

TBF The roads in Germany, are brilliant surface wise anyway. And the last bit through the gate is paving slabs anyway. So pretty flat. (bar the couple of steps) I was just thinking if this is a "money no object" exercise for Ineos. What can they do? People think marathon running is simple. But there's so many variable to get absolutely spot on.


As you say, it's really interesting.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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earthling wrote:
For me he is so close he needs to make it in a race not some scientifically concocted experiment that does not count.

Then, all that prep to show up on a day to the race and there's either a 20mph tailwind or headwind totally ruining the attempt.

They need to start recognizing attempts with net zero elevation gain/loss and net zero wind just like the indoor cycling hour record.

Dude runs 26.2mi in under 2 hours without a tailwind and without going downhill.......c'mon.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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earthling wrote:
... For me he is so close he needs to make it in a race not some scientifically concocted experiment that does not count. Having said that I think Eliud is probably the GOAT at marathon running whether he ever breaks 2 hours or not.

...

Absolutely agree he is the best. The trouble is he is so good no one is going to race him at 2 hour pace. Nobody raced Paula when she set the record. Roger Bannister was technically in a race but in name only. In Berlin Eliud was by himself at half way wasn't he? If someone was good enough to race him then what would probably happen is they'd race each other in slower (it's all relative) races and run their fastest times when they don't have to be be tactical racing the other one. We might race better against someone than the clock but I don't think it works that way for the best.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
earthling wrote:
For me he is so close he needs to make it in a race not some scientifically concocted experiment that does not count.


Then, all that prep to show up on a day to the race and there's either a 20mph tailwind or headwind totally ruining the attempt.

They need to start recognizing attempts with net zero elevation gain/loss and net zero wind just like the indoor cycling hour record.

Dude runs 26.2mi in under 2 hours without a tailwind and without going downhill.......c'mon.

It's the drafting/pacing that's an issue. Drafting has the same effect as tailwind
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [Race1] [ In reply to ]
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Race1 wrote:
I wonder if this will be a tie up with Team Ineos (nee Sky)

In that the cycling team will do their "marginal gains" stuff that Kipchoge (and by default Nike) didn't


There may have a been a few things that could have been improved at Breaking2, but Nike did spend quite a bit of time on the marginal gains. One thing they didn't touch (or so it was said), was Kipchoge's training. And rightfully so.

But, they used running tights/shorts, which wasn't really common in marathon running on the elite level. They had this weird, "aerodynamic" tape on their legs, which they still use. Arm warmers/coolers, although I'm not sure the purpose for that. Kipchoge's singlet at Breaking2 was pretty tight (Desisa's top was not) compared to what he does at big city marathons. Not to mention, he ran in a draft the entire time anyways, so not sure how much it mattered.

Nike even claimed the "point" on the heel of the Vaporflys was for aerodynamic reasons. For that matter, they designed an entirely new shoe for the event!

They used bikes to ride along and carry drinks & fuel; they even measured the losses found when grabbing drinks off a table, like in big city marathons, compared to having a cyclist ride along and hand the drink. The loop course, weather, car with the clock on the roof, the lasers on the ground, using an electric car vs. a gasoline or diesel like in a lot of normal races.

I suppose he could run shirtless or 100 meter sprinter onesie and shave his hair off.. but Nike did a pretty good job with Breaking2 at covering the details. But, there's always stuff to be learned.. it'll be interesting to see what differences there are between this attempt and the Breaking2 from 2017.
Last edited by: phoenixR34: May 6, 19 14:43
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [Race1] [ In reply to ]
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Race1 wrote:
Wil they take a more detailed look at his nutrition and watts per Kg?
Will Nike step up with a completely bespoke to his weight Vaporfly 10% where the carbon plate is specific to him and provides even more spring but will only last 30miles before being toast

Nike (from Breaking2) didn't appear to look at much more than having a pace car with pacers, and using their new shoes

Have to say that a specific run surface probably breaks some IAAF rules. But Sir Jim Ratcliffe is Britain's richest man. So could he potentially re surface a thin 1m wide strip covering 26.2 miles of Berlin (or the marathon course in Doha - Though I guess the Qataris would happily pay for that if a wold record was set there) all the way round to be absolutely perfect? That way it's available to all runners. And would be record eligible?

You're not giving Nike or Kipchoge enough credit.

Kipchoge is already spot on with nutrition. Nike brought all kinds of experts and they said he already follows pretty much every best practice.

Nike did create a bespoke shoe tuned to each runner in breaking2. It wasn't just their "new shoe." Spring was already optimized and there is nothing about carbon that would suggest you can make it perform better by making it last 30 miles. They also made it as perfect as possible in terms of elevation, location, temperature, etc. How could they have improved it any further?

You should watch the docu. It's very interesting and they did far more than you suggest.

Making a track springy would detract from a record more than pacers or shoes, imo. At that point it's not "road" racing anymore.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:

Nike did create a bespoke shoe tuned to each runner in breaking2. It wasn't just their "new shoe." Spring was already optimized and there is nothing about carbon that would suggest you can make it perform better by making it last 30 miles. They also made it as perfect as possible in terms of elevation, location, temperature, etc. How could they have improved it any further?

You should watch the docu. It's very interesting and they did far more than you suggest.

.

That's right.. I forgot about that. The three runners in Breaking2 had one-off Vaporfly Elites with specific carbon plate specs designed for each runner. Not sure what the differences were.. but yeah, making one that only lasts 30 miles? That's like saying you could make a carbon bike that would be faster if it only lasted 30 miles.. doesn't make much sense.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [phoenixR34] [ In reply to ]
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Dare I say it, but I think the shoes are potentially some low-hanging fruit.

The Vaporfly 4% (or custom "Elites" that those guys used in Monza) with the carbon baseplate were a new venture for Nike, at least in this era and I think most people now agree that at Elite-level they were a huge leap-forward; you would hope that Nike have learnt something from the last few years of people running in those shoes to maybe squeeze out an extra percent or two in terms of running economy with a revised version.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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I watched the London race and it didn't even look like he was trying - it was like watching Usain Bolt in his pomp.

Missing out 1:59 by 26 secs - surely a speed increase of 1sec per mile is attainable for him - and I really hope that he goes for it in an actual race rather than "lab conditions" - otherwise he might as well do the attempt on a treadmill...
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [Race1] [ In reply to ]
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qatar can get quite cool in the winter with highs not hitting 20C. Its dead flat and would be quite conducive to a WR attempt between Jan-Feb.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [p9ul] [ In reply to ]
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p9ul wrote:
I watched the London race and it didn't even look like he was trying - it was like watching Usain Bolt in his pomp.

Missing out 1:59 by 26 secs - surely a speed increase of 1sec per mile is attainable for him - and I really hope that he goes for it in an actual race rather than "lab conditions" - otherwise he might as well do the attempt on a treadmill...

Heh I was going for a 5k PR on the tready.. then the power went out!

I think they will have to bring in dopers as rabbits to break the record. Especially that guy with WR half who recently was busted. Why no attempt at Berlin or Chicago otherwise...
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [phoenixR34] [ In reply to ]
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phoenixR34 wrote:
... making one that only lasts 30 miles? That's like saying you could make a carbon bike that would be faster if it only lasted 30 miles.. doesn't make much sense.

What if you make it out of the ultimate lightest (almost flimsy) possible materials. With no thought given to longevity. We already know 4% are not getting the mileage that a regular Pegasus 35 will get.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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Stuff like this is fun. Bolt and Mo racing in a 600m, Phelps swimming in SCY. Things where the athletes full range of talent are on display but in a different environment...
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [awenborn] [ In reply to ]
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Just over a month ago and before the news and announcement that Team SKY was to become Team Ineos, and now, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, was also going to fund and support Eliud Kipchoge's second attempt at Breaking 2 hrs, I like I'm sure may people had no idea who Jim Ratcliffe was. Now in, short order, he's become one of the most important people in all of Endurance Sports!

Apparently Nike's money was not enough - more is needed for this. I'm still a bit confused. The last attempt, they made it clear that what they were doing was NOT a World Record for the marathon. I was fine with all that. I saw legitimacy and value, in all the stuff they did, going all-in, to try and break 2 hrs, and they/he nearly did - much to the astonishment of just about everyone.

There was tremendous psychological value for Kipchoge himself. Look at how the next time he went out to run a legit marathon, in great conditions he obliterated the World Record. Point being - To go Sub-2 even in an "artificial" setting, has value!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Just over a month ago and before the news and announcement that Team SKY was to become Team Ineos, and now, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, was also going to fund and support Eliud Kipchoge's second attempt at Breaking 2 hrs, I like I'm sure may people had no idea who Jim Ratcliffe was. Now in, short order, he's become one of the most important people in all of Endurance Sports!


Apparently Nike's money was not enough - more is needed for this. I'm still a bit confused. The last attempt, they made it clear that what they were doing was NOT a World Record for the marathon. I was fine with all that. I saw legitimacy and value, in all the stuff they did, going all-in, to try and break 2 hrs, and they/he nearly did - much to the astonishment of just about everyone.

There was tremendous psychological value for Kipchoge himself. Look at how the next time he went out to run a legit marathon, in great conditions he obliterated the World Record. Point being - To go Sub-2 even in an "artificial" setting, has value!


I was against the Nike "stunt", mainly because I did not want 2 hrs broken outside of a real race. It felt like doing the first Everest summit if you did not do it on the natural setting and someone went there with some machinery and made the climb less technical and took away the real world variability.

Racing is racing because of all the variables, where every person is racing for themself for the win, not everyone working together to hit a time....but Bannister's sub 4 was also in in a bit of "stunt mode" which is why as a fan I am happy that Landy and Bannister both went way sub 4 in the same year at the Empire Games (former commonwealth games)....to me, both men going sub 4 in a 'real race' was the actual real "sub 4 day"....but Bannister's fake sub 4 day broke through the psychological barrier.





By the way yesterday was 65 years since Bannister's "stunt day"!!!!

So if Kipchoge can go sub 2 in a stunt event to pave the way for a whole whack of dudes believing they can go sub 2 at Berlin or Rotterdam in a real race, then its a good thing.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think the breaking 2hr run that he did was one of the biggest reasons he broke the actual world record the way he did. Even with all the fancy cars, pacers, etc. during the breaking 2 hour attempt, he still ran, under his own power, 2:00:25. Such a huge mental boost to feel that leg turnover and pace and to complete the run.
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Re: Ineos 1:59 Challenge - Kipchoge is going for it again! [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
For me he is so close he needs to make it in a race not some scientifically concocted experiment that does not count//

I think people need to think about this like the hour record in cycling. HE has already shown himself to be the greatest marathoner of all time, so like the bike racers, time to put up a totally separate time record to finish off his career..

I can see where you and a lot of other people on this thread are going with this. Its a different event - not a marathon race as such - a time trial to test individuals like the hour does in cycling. I actually quite like the idea. Where this leads me is to a different event all together. Cycling has the 'hour'. Endurance running has the 'double hour'. In other words, how far can you run in two hours - anything goes. Much like a cyclist will have specific equipment for the hour, the runner will have specific venue/equipment/environment for the double hour. Indoor track, temperature/humidity controlled environment, special track surface, special track shoes etc etc who knows? But it takes the desire to break two hours for the marathon to a new event and a new level where runners and technology can meet to prove they are the best over two hours, not the marathon. It showcases technology and endeavor at the same time.

Now I can suddenly see a new event, a series of 'attempts' by future potential GOAT athletes and the first two hour marathon created in an event borne out of science and an athletes desire to push themselves to the absolute limit. From this event we then see future stars finally breaking 2 hours for an actual marathon race.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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