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Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets?
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Hey there - It puzzles me why all the 11+ speed groupsets use their own freehubs like Rotor the RVOLVER and SRAM the XDR.

I started thinking maybe there is a mechanical reason, but the more I think about it, the less I see any need to change the freehub body design because of an added sprocket or two. The force transfered between sprocket and freehub may be transferred to a smaller surface area, because sprockets or spacers get slimmer (My assumption is that this is the case as the frame width does not change). So differences in force transfer do not indicate a different freehub design, but maybe only the use of a harder material for the freehub body.

So my thought is that this change may be rather for business reasons. Vendors like SRAM and Rotor can provide complete build kits to the bike shops including groupsets, powermeters, parts like handlebars, and wheels tailored to their groupsets.

Also, the SRAM AXS and Rotor 13 speed are really really unattractive for the aftermarket (at least in Europe). They are expensive and need wheel (or at least freehub) replacements. If I want to switch e.g. from a RED to a RED AXS on my BMC SLR01 it would cost more than what the bike is worth. So it seems that OEMs are the main target market, not aftermarket.

So if an OEM is tendering the build kits for itā€˜s new frameset companies like SRAM (AXS, Quarq, ZIPP) and Rotor have an advantage as they can provide all their components on their own, simplify logistics, assembly, and prevent margin stacking. Shimano has also all the necessary components to compete.

However, if such vendors aim at providing an ā€žend to end solutionā€œ the consumer would be locked in as individual parts in the final build cannot be changed independently. Alternative vendors like FSA or KCNC would need to license design schematics to produce replacement parts for these systems which would commercially make no sense.

Iā€˜m not the conspiracy theory guy, but that seems to be the only rationale unless you school me why there is a mechanical reason that everyone does his own design.
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Richie74] [ In reply to ]
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Not even close to a conspiracy theory. Its just something companies do. Sure its annoying to consumers, but it's business.

I could name a bunch of other markets that do this but the most obvious that comes to mind is Apple and their charging ports. Could they easily have done mini-usb and then usb-c like every other manufacturer? Sure, but then they don't get all that sweet sweet $$$ from people losing their chargers and needing to buy another at a high price. Its definitely not a new concept.

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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Richie74] [ In reply to ]
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All the 12spd groups run a 10 tooth small cog in the rear. You can not fit a 10 on a normal freehub because the cog will be too small to fit over the freehub body.

Brian Hughes
http://www.fastsplits.com
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Brian Hughes] [ In reply to ]
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I have never seen the Campy 12x Super Record in the wild but at least the homepage says that the 12x cassette is fully compatible with the 11x freehub. However, if I relate to your argument the fact that it has no 10x sprocket might be the reason why they are compatible with the 11x Campy freehubs.
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Richie74] [ In reply to ]
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correct, I was thinking of the Sram and Rotor.

Brian Hughes
http://www.fastsplits.com
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Richie74] [ In reply to ]
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Rotor needs a new hub because the 13 speed cassette won't fit in the width of a HG freehub. It's as simple as that. It's not just a different freehub, it's wider and requires different wheel dishing than a standard 11s Shimano HyperGlide freehub. That said, you can flip a switch on the rear derailleur to turn it to a 12 speed system, and Rotor does sell 12-speed cassettes that fit an traditional 11s HG hub.

The reason for SRAM's XD and XD-R freehubs is to accommodate a 10T smallest cog, which is too small for a HG freehub. The cynic will suggest that they went 10T just to try to make money selling XD-R freehubs. A more measured examination will reveal that a 10T cog is a lighter solution to increasing your cassette range ~10% than adding a much bigger cog at the other end of the cassette...and that any revenue gained by the sale of proprietary freehubs is likely offset by reduced by the "adoption barrier" it represents. I'm inclined to believe that SRAM believes its the superior solution. SRAM eventually offered an HG-compatible 12-speed option for mountain bikes as the tech worked it's way down to the groupset hierarchy, albeit without the 10T cog, and I would be a a bit surprised if they don't do something similar again with road. In the meantime, I'm watching to see if the aftermarket steps in with a 12S cassette that's compatible with SRAM's 12s road rear derailleurs and chains, but starts with an 11T cog and fits an HG freehub.

BTW, Shimano also came out with their own new freehub standard for 12 speed XT mountain group so that they can fit a 10T cog. When Shimano brings 12 speed tech to road, you can almost bet that there will be a road version of Microspline.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Apr 29, 19 14:34
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you, that seems very much reasonable.
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Brian Hughes] [ In reply to ]
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Brian Hughes wrote:
All the 12spd groups run a 10 tooth small cog in the rear. You can not fit a 10 on a normal freehub because the cog will be too small to fit over the freehub body.

So then the question becomes, why do you need a 10t cog on a road bike...or, even a "gravel" bike? ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Mostly because they are trying to push you towards running a single ring in the front like mountain bikers. You can get the same ratio as a double with running a 10-33. I like it on my MTB, not so sure I'd like it on my road or TT bikes.

Brian Hughes
http://www.fastsplits.com
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Rotor needs a new hub because the 13 speed cassette won't fit in the width of a HG freehub. It's as simple as that. It's not just a different freehub, it requires different wheel dishing than a standard 11s Shimano HyperGlide freehub.

To expand on this thought, there's no technical reason that you couldn't fit 13 cogs in the width of an HG hub. However, it would require a completely new, narrower chain. That extra R&D expense, plus the considerable expense of manufacturing a proprietary chain in the relatively modest volumes Rotor was forecasting, not to mention the probability that new chainwheels would need to be developed and manufactured, would have killed the business case. To keep the project financially viable, Rotor opted to design around an existing 12 speed chain from the KMC catalog.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Brian Hughes wrote:
All the 12spd groups run a 10 tooth small cog in the rear. You can not fit a 10 on a normal freehub because the cog will be too small to fit over the freehub body.


So then the question becomes, why do you need a 10t cog on a road bike...or, even a "gravel" bike? ;-)


A 10T cog gets you ~10% more range for less weight than a 10% bigger cog on the other end. Plus you get that range without having to extend the rear derailleur length as much to clear and chain wrap a 10% bigger cog on the other end. It makes a lot of sense for 1x. Makes less sense for 2x, although SRAM did simultaneously downsize the front chain wheels to partially compensate.

I'm personally intrigued by the new Campy Chorus 12 speed mechanical groupset that was announced last week. ~$1300 MSRP gets you a full rim brake grouppo, including cranks in your choice of 52/36, 50/34, or 48/32. Cassette options are 11-29, 11-32, or 11-34 and, interestingly, all 3 options have the same cogs in the first 8 positions, with single tooth steps on the first 7. And, to circle it back around to the original post, it uses the same old Campy freehub that's been around for a while.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Apr 29, 19 14:32
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Brian Hughes wrote:
All the 12spd groups run a 10 tooth small cog in the rear. You can not fit a 10 on a normal freehub because the cog will be too small to fit over the freehub body.


So then the question becomes, why do you need a 10t cog on a road bike...or, even a "gravel" bike? ;-)


A 10T cog gets you ~10% more range for less weight than a 10% bigger cog on the other end. Plus you get that range without having to extend the rear derailleur length as much to clear and chain wrap a 10% bigger cog on the other end. It makes a lot of sense for 1x. Makes less sense for 2x, although SRAM did simultaneously downsize the front chain wheels to partially compensate.

I'm personally intrigued by the new Campy Chorus 12 speed mechanical groupset that was announced last week. ~$1300 MSRP gets you a full rim brake grouppo, including cranks in your choice of 52/36, 50/34, or 48/32. Cassette options are 11-29, 11-32, or 11-34 and, interestingly, all 3 options have the same cogs in the first 8 positions, with single tooth steps on the first 7. And, to circle it back around to the original post, it uses the same old Campy freehub that's been around for a while.

Aaah...but do those purported weight savings of a 10T counteract the efficiency hit for using the smaller cogs/chainrings...especially when combined with the greater chain skew at the ends for a 1X system? ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Aaah...but do those purported weight savings of a 10T counteract the efficiency hit for using the smaller cogs/chainrings...especially when combined with the greater chain skew at the ends for a 1X system? ;-)


Good point. At or near the pointy end of the cog, the drivetrain inefficiencies probably do cost more than the gains from the weight savings. Closer to the middle, where you spend more of your time, it could go either way. At the big end, I'd guess the weight savings matters more. So, overall, probably a wash. But "less grams" sells more bikes than "drivetrain efficiency" so we get light weight, with the bonus for the manufacturers of not having having to stretch the rear derailleur to clear and carry the extra chain wrap for a 4T or 5T bigger cog at the back to get the same range with an 11T cog as the smallest.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Apr 29, 19 16:08
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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A big part of Rotors rationale was getting around patents.
their 13s actually uses an HG freehub but it is moved inboard by 4.5mm to allow the extra 10t cog at the bottom.

HG freehub isn't a good design - everyone wants to make it in alloy which means the cogs chew it up.

The Record cassette has enough room to the spokes to allow a little machined shelf as a chain drop protector, so it's promising that 13s from Campag could stay on the same freehub (that works really well).

Something that no one wants to talk about is that stealing space on the NDS for a rotor and space on the DS for XDR is narrowing the hub flanges and weakening wheels.
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Aaah...but do those purported weight savings of a 10T counteract the efficiency hit for using the smaller cogs/chainrings...especially when combined with the greater chain skew at the ends for a 1X system? ;-)


Good point. At or near the pointy end of the cog, the drivetrain inefficiencies probably do cost more than the gains from the weight savings. Closer to the middle, where you spend more of your time, it could go either way. At the big end, I'd guess the weight savings matters more. So, overall, probably a wash. But "less grams" sells more bikes than "drivetrain efficiency" so we get light weight, with the bonus for the manufacturers of not having having to stretch the rear derailleur to clear and carry the extra chain wrap for a 4T or 5T bigger cog at the back to get the same range with an 11T cog as the smallest.

Just so you know, I run an 11-42 cassette on my gravel bike...paired with a 53/39 crankset. The derailleur (SRAM GX w/clutch) handles it all just fine.

As my friend says, "It has alls the gears" ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:


Just so you know, I run an 11-42 cassette on my gravel bike...paired with a 53/39 crankset. The derailleur (SRAM GX w/clutch) handles it all just fine.

As my friend says, "It has alls the gears" ;-)

The last mechanical ā€œmulletā€ configuration. No shortage of range there. Will it cross chain big/big with that combo?

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Why do SRAM and Rotor have special freehubs for their 11+ speed groupsets? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Tom A. wrote:


Just so you know, I run an 11-42 cassette on my gravel bike...paired with a 53/39 crankset. The derailleur (SRAM GX w/clutch) handles it all just fine.

As my friend says, "It has alls the gears" ;-)

The last mechanical ā€œmulletā€ configuration. No shortage of range there. Will it cross chain big/big with that combo?

Yup :-)

...although, to be fair, I don't ever run it like that. But, having it capable saves problems if one happens to forget and try shifting it there.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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