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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [cga0322] [ In reply to ]
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cga0322 wrote:
I finished in 6:45.

I was hoping for just below 6hrs as that's what my training numbers pointed to. My legs gave me a difficult time during the run as I kept seizing up. Uncle Garmin tells me my average HR throughout the race was in zone 3.2.

How did you feel on the bike ride during Oceanside? Did you feel you overbiked and that's what caused your legs to seize up? How did you feel your nutrition plan went? What's your strongest discipline?

I'm mostly asking these questions because IMMT has more climbing per distance than Oside. If you're a strong biker that can handle that course AND you have a decent nutrition plan, then you won't have a problem finishing (although it'll be a long day).

Personally, I'd keep training at 8-12 hours/week for another year or two before having a go at IMMT. But if you just want to finish and do 1 IM, then just get on the bike a lot and really dial in your nutrition plan.
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [cga0322] [ In reply to ]
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cga0322 wrote:
I finished in 6:45.

I was hoping for just below 6hrs as that's what my training numbers pointed to. My legs gave me a difficult time during the run as I kept seizing up. Uncle Garmin tells me my average HR throughout the race was in zone 3.2.

So a full IM is not simply twice a half IM, except on paper.

If you were hoping for a sub-6, which to me means you trained at the effort level required of that, but went that much slower, I would say you are in for a rude surprise attempting a full. Will you finish? I would say it's not impossible, but certainly not guaranteed.

With good coaching you might be able to get there. But ask yourself this: is simply finishing satisfying to you? Would you be happy to just barely squeak in under the cutoff, destroyed by being miserable all day? Or would you rather get yourself to the finish in a performance you consider satisfactory?

I think with only 4 months, you might not have enough time to really build the endurance you need.
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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I definitely agree that sticking to another HIM this year is my best bet. While it's exciting to attempt an IM this year, I don't want to barely finish or injure myself in the process. I would rather take my time training and preparing than rushing it to only crawl over the line.

I also had several setbacks from my training for Oceanside - walking pneumonia and tendonitis that halted my training for 2 weeks out of 12 total. I had several fitness gaps that I am now aware of.

I felt great during the swim and bike - but went much easier than I think I should have. I was just worried about pacing the whole race given it was my first. My HR actually barely left 'Easy' the entire race. I also need to focus more on my nutrition and get more recommendations and guidance from a coach. I think my lack of real nutrition planning (vs sticking w GUs and salt pills all day) may have hurt me during the race. Overall, I had a great time.

Appreciate the advice here - except for the bro that just said train for 2 years straight.

It is a life goal to complete an IM...and it will happen at some point.
Last edited by: cga0322: Apr 17, 19 17:01
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [cga0322] [ In reply to ]
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I trained for about five years before my first Ironman.

In the ten months prior to the race, I was training at least 15 hours every week. There were two bike focused weeks where I rode for more than 25 hours each.
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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Curious, with that plan, how fast did you go?
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
I trained for about five years before my first Ironman.

In the ten months prior to the race, I was training at least 15 hours every week. There were two bike focused weeks where I rode for more than 25 hours each.

I guess it depends on your goals as well as fitness background and fitness level entering training but for a modest finishing time averaging 15 hours per week is not necessary.
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
I trained for about five years before my first Ironman.

In the ten months prior to the race, I was training at least 15 hours every week. There were two bike focused weeks where I rode for more than 25 hours each.

Yeah...this isn’t helpful. But thanks though.
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
I trained for about five years before my first Ironman.

In the ten months prior to the race, I was training at least 15 hours every week. There were two bike focused weeks where I rode for more than 25 hours each.
You may have done that, but it's absolutely unnecessary and for many people it's utterly unrealistic and perhaps undesirable to commit that amount of time.

I did my first IM on a typical volume of about 8hrs/wk for about 7 months peaking at about 12-13hrs/wk for a couple of weeks. I was doing around 7-8hrs for the first couple of months, rising briefly to a peak of about 12-13hrs with a couple of months to go. Then, due to unavoidable and unforeseen work issues, I was forced to reduce my training volume hugely in the last 2 months. I never planned to do huge training volume, but I did intend to average about 9-10hrs per week over the 7 months and peak around 13-14hrs. The interruption to training in the last 8 weeks or so was a huge problem. I was down to something like 5-6hrs a week for a few weeks IIRC. I was also a little overweight and lost about 20-25mins on the run due to a stupid nutrition error (I had some salt capsules in my pocket for the run but forgot to take any. I was going well until about ~25km then suddenly got huge pain in my arms, back and sides which forced me to walk most of the time from around the 27km mark. My legs and core, the muscles actually doing the work, were fine but when i ran it the virbration was excrutiating. I didn't know what was wrong, then realised it might be salt, took a couple of capsules and after another 15mins I was feeling much better and back running slowly from about the 35km mark. From that point on I was recovering and picking up speed all the way to the finish). I finished in just over 13hrs, which I was a bit disappointed with but without the run issue I think about 12:40 was definitely realistic. Had I been able to stick with my planned training volume and not the silly 5-6hrs in the months before the race something in the vicinity of 12:15 was realistic. That's not fast. But it's nowhere near worrying about the cutoff either.

Me:
History: 5 years casual cycling and sporadic running with a few sprint duathlons and adventure races mixed in. I probably averaged about 4hrs/wk for the first 2-3 years and more like 5-8hrs/wk for year 3, 4 and fifth year up until start of IM prep about 7 months out. 1 year out from 1st IM I did an Olympic distance race and a couple of months later a 70.3. Enjoyed them and signed up for an IM the following season.
IM specific Preparation: 7 months averaging ~8hrs and a long reduction to 5-6hrs/wk where the peak volume should have been. Peaked at around 12-13hrs for a couple of weeks about two months out from the race.

jimatbeyond:
History: 5 years training. Volume unknown
IM specific Preparation: 10 months with all weeks at minimum of 15hrs. Peak couple of weeks were 25hrs+.

There's quite a difference between those two approaches, and there's a huge middle ground that I reckon is perfectly reasonable for most people.
I was well able to complete my first IM on the low volume and horribly compromised training described even if my time wasn't fantastic. A plan to build from 70.3 to IM in 4 months based around 10-12hr weekly volume seems pretty reasonable to me, providing the 70.3 went well and was not excessively slow. I'd be a bit concerned given the OP took 6:45 for the 70.3 and had been hoping for 6:00. That's a big difference and starting from 6:45, an IM in 4 months looks considerably tougher. I'd want to be confident I knew whether the 6hrs was just hugely optimistic or if there were specific causes for the difference. If there were specific causes, they'll surely be far more significant in the context of an IM.
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
I trained for about five years before my first Ironman.

In the ten months prior to the race, I was training at least 15 hours every week. There were two bike focused weeks where I rode for more than 25 hours each.

Unless you want to be best overall AG I don't think this is necessary. Personally I started doing triathlon at the end of march 2017 and did my first Ironman in Italy at the end of September. Got a stress fracture 6 weeks prior to the race, so was probably pushing the load a bit. Finished in just over 10.30 which I tell myself would have been a sub 10 without the stress fracture :p No but on a serious note. 15 hours as a minimun every week after 5 years of training should be a good bit under 9, maybe all the way down to 8.30
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [cga0322] [ In reply to ]
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cga0322 wrote:
I definitely agree that sticking to another HIM this year is my best bet. While it's exciting to attempt an IM this year, I don't want to barely finish or injure myself in the process. I would rather take my time training and preparing than rushing it to only crawl over the line.

I also had several setbacks from my training for Oceanside - walking pneumonia and tendonitis that halted my training for 2 weeks out of 12 total. I had several fitness gaps that I am now aware of.

I felt great during the swim and bike - but went much easier than I think I should have. I was just worried about pacing the whole race given it was my first. My HR actually barely left 'Easy' the entire race. I also need to focus more on my nutrition and get more recommendations and guidance from a coach. I think my lack of real nutrition planning (vs sticking w GUs and salt pills all day) may have hurt me during the race. Overall, I had a great time.

Appreciate the advice here - except for the bro that just said train for 2 years straight.

It is a life goal to complete an IM...and it will happen at some point.

The "train for 2 years" advice is actually good advice. That doesn't mean ALL you do for 2 years is train. But if you were to not race IMMT this year, but set your sights on an IM for next year (meaning you are already one year in, and just adding an extra year in between, hence two years), you will be able to set yourself up for a much better IM experience.

You have time this year to put in some more quality HIM training, and race another in the fall. Then take the winter to start working on longer endurance efforts. Race another 70.3 sometime next spring (Oceanside again perhaps) and get your time down into the mid 5-hr range. At that point I would advise choosing a slightly later IM (Maryland, Florida, Arizona, Chattanooga) and target one of those. Gives you more time to really build those long efforts.

That said, if you want to tackle IMMT this year, just know you won't be going into it entirely prepared and you might need to look at it like it's a first attempt. Unless of course simply completing a single IM is the goal, in which case, sure you might succeed.
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [cga0322] [ In reply to ]
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its probably doable to finish but its going to be a long day. make sure you're biking hilly routes or do hill repeats because that second loop climb up to Lake Superior just sucks. From the pedestrian village its about 15 km of rolling hill climbing. If possible, get up to Mont Tremblant ride the FULL course (2 loops) so you know what you're facing and to test your nutrition

the run will probably be a death march by the second loop. I'd hate to be on the trail once the sun goes down. Its pitch black between aid stations. Avoiding the glow sticks was a powerful motivator for me to be far enough down the trail before they started handing them out

use the search engine here to find race reports/review of IMMT. Dev Paul wrote an excellent review in 2012
Last edited by: ptakeda: Apr 19, 19 8:10
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [cga0322] [ In reply to ]
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cga0322 wrote:
I definitely agree that sticking to another HIM this year is my best bet.

Good for you in recognizing your limits. Do the extra HIM for the practice and to get stronger. After a decent winter of training I bet you'll be flying and able to really enjoy the IM experience!
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [cga0322] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think that it is unreasonable to attempt the IM. Did you already register? I am going to be attempting my first IM this year in November at IMAZ. Most of what I read online says you should generally expect your full IM time to be 2.3 or some times your half IM time. That would put you to a point where you should be able to finish based on your current fitness at oceanside. If you have 3.5 more months to train, I don't see why you couldn't be in better shape to hope for a finish in under 15 hours. Yes, that would be a long day, but not everyone does the IM to be the fastest. Some people, with limited resources, hope to finish as a personal goal.
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
jimatbeyond wrote:
I trained for about five years before my first Ironman.

In the ten months prior to the race, I was training at least 15 hours every week. There were two bike focused weeks where I rode for more than 25 hours each.

You may have done that, but it's absolutely unnecessary and for many people it's utterly unrealistic and perhaps undesirable to commit that amount of time.

I did my first IM on a typical volume of about 8hrs/wk for about 7 months peaking at about 12-13hrs/wk for a couple of weeks. I was doing around 7-8hrs for the first couple of months, rising briefly to a peak of about 12-13hrs with a couple of months to go. Then, due to unavoidable and unforeseen work issues, I was forced to reduce my training volume hugely in the last 2 months. I never planned to do huge training volume, but I did intend to average about 9-10hrs per week over the 7 months and peak around 13-14hrs. The interruption to training in the last 8 weeks or so was a huge problem. I was down to something like 5-6hrs a week for a few weeks IIRC. I was also a little overweight and lost about 20-25mins on the run due to a stupid nutrition error (I had some salt capsules in my pocket for the run but forgot to take any. I was going well until about ~25km then suddenly got huge pain in my arms, back and sides which forced me to walk most of the time from around the 27km mark. My legs and core, the muscles actually doing the work, were fine but when i ran it the virbration was excrutiating. I didn't know what was wrong, then realised it might be salt, took a couple of capsules and after another 15mins I was feeling much better and back running slowly from about the 35km mark. From that point on I was recovering and picking up speed all the way to the finish). I finished in just over 13hrs, which I was a bit disappointed with but without the run issue I think about 12:40 was definitely realistic. Had I been able to stick with my planned training volume and not the silly 5-6hrs in the months before the race something in the vicinity of 12:15 was realistic. That's not fast. But it's nowhere near worrying about the cutoff either.

Me:
History: 5 years casual cycling and sporadic running with a few sprint duathlons and adventure races mixed in. I probably averaged about 4hrs/wk for the first 2-3 years and more like 5-8hrs/wk for year 3, 4 and fifth year up until start of IM prep about 7 months out. 1 year out from 1st IM I did an Olympic distance race and a couple of months later a 70.3. Enjoyed them and signed up for an IM the following season.
IM specific Preparation: 7 months averaging ~8hrs and a long reduction to 5-6hrs/wk where the peak volume should have been. Peaked at around 12-13hrs for a couple of weeks about two months out from the race.

jimatbeyond:
History: 5 years training. Volume unknown
IM specific Preparation: 10 months with all weeks at minimum of 15hrs. Peak couple of weeks were 25hrs+.

There's quite a difference between those two approaches, and there's a huge middle ground that I reckon is perfectly reasonable for most people.
I was well able to complete my first IM on the low volume and horribly compromised training described even if my time wasn't fantastic. A plan to build from 70.3 to IM in 4 months based around 10-12hr weekly volume seems pretty reasonable to me, providing the 70.3 went well and was not excessively slow. I'd be a bit concerned given the OP took 6:45 for the 70.3 and had been hoping for 6:00. That's a big difference and starting from 6:45, an IM in 4 months looks considerably tougher. I'd want to be confident I knew whether the 6hrs was just hugely optimistic or if there were specific causes for the difference. If there were specific causes, they'll surely be far more significant in the context of an IM.


Thanks for this!
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [cga0322] [ In reply to ]
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cga0322 wrote:
I finished in 6:45.

I was hoping for just below 6hrs as that's what my training numbers pointed to. My legs gave me a difficult time during the run as I kept seizing up. Uncle Garmin tells me my average HR throughout the race was in zone 3.2.
Have you done a marathon or century ride before? Are you better at long grinding days or short hard days?

You can wait until you feel you are totally prepared or sign up and treat the day as a sort of IM walk through so you can maximize you first try at a real effort. It kind of depends on time and finances. You have about a 2 hour cushion to make the cutoff for the full. You can do it.

Oui, mais pas de femme toute de suite (yes, but I am not ready for a woman straight away) -Stephen Roche's reply when asked whether he was okay after collapsing at the finish in the La Plagne stage of the 1987 Tour
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [cga0322] [ In reply to ]
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Here's my 2 cents. First off be realistic with your goal. Is it to finish or do you have a time in mind.

Here's my story.
2008 first year in Triathlon,
- life long runner and decent cyclist.
- could not swim a stroke
- 70.3 Muskoka September
- 50 min swim
- 3:07 bike (94 km)
- 1:49 run
Pretty happy and figured I go watch a fiend in Florida and register for 2009 Full IM in November. Lot's of time!

2009
- 70.3 Muskoka September
- 48 min swim
- 3:00 bike (94 km)
- 1:44 run
- Passed 803 on the bike run
Again happy, double it and add an hour I'm good.

IM Florida Nov
- 1:38 Swim Remnants of Hurricane Ida (I believe it was called)
- 5:47 bike
- run/walk 5:30
Disaster of a day

2010
- IM Canada Aug
- Swim 1:28
- Bike 6:30
- Run 4:50
Still over 13 hours and disappointed. I did not race for 9 years and have finally registered for a race this season. The truth is I was able to get in decent 70.3 shape but not IM. I thought i did the work, 180 km rides, 30 + km runs, 5 km open water swims and 125 km/ 16km bricks.

Good luck with your decision.

It's a Good life if you don't Weaken!
My Mom 1922-2004
Last edited by: IAGLIYDW: Apr 21, 19 7:01
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Re: HIM to IM in 4 mo (help me) [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
Train for 15 hours a week for about two years and then do an Ironman.

I wish I would have done that before my first IM.

Instead I did one in my second year 5 months after I did my first HIM. If I'd have waited another year I would have matured as a runner enough to not hurt my knee during the run and forced to walk.

I would rather have had to walk because I was tired and not hurt.
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