Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [dswezey] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My main suggestion would be for more lifeguards on the swim course. Maybe there should be a required ratio of X# guards to swimmers.




--------


Red cross suggests 2 LG's any time a pool is open and up to 50 swimmers. They suggest for every 25 additional swimmers, 1 LG be added.


2500 athletes would mean 100 LG's.




-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jun 13, 19 9:37
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Another google search has "The Aquatics Counsel" suggesting a 1 LG: 75 swimmers ratio (this isn't detailed whether pool or open water environment)

2500 race would mean 33 LG's. Most WTC events have multiple professional marine specialists in boats and so I'm assuming say 3 of them on a boat would "count".

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
@Doug. There you have it. Just goes to show how woefully understaffed these races are on the swim. 100 lifeguards might be impossible but I'd be surprised if there were 30 on a HIM course with 2000 athletes.

Tri is my Tribe! "Sometimes you need to slow down in order to go fast."
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [Precisionswim] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Precisionswim wrote:
I am not claiming that it is only being unprepared that is the cause of these deaths. I am just simply pointing out the correlation of the high number of swimming deaths compared to the other two domains. This correlation does seem to point to the fact that there is something about swimming in particular that is effecting these athletes at a larger percentage.

Precisionswimming.com
Guided Swim Training Program


You kinda are...its exactly what you said:

Precisionswim wrote:

This leads me to believe that the swimming conditions and the athlete's preparation to handle such conditions play a large factor in these deaths. As coaches in the sport we need to do all we can to prepare these athletes for what they will be encountering. Perhaps it is not a swimming problem but a swim coaching problem.


The statistics do NOT agree with your "belief".

The swim comes first. Having a cardiac event in the water, is highly likely to be fatal. Being "fit" decreases your probability of having a cardiac event, but doesn't eliminate it (obviously). Being EVEN MORE fit doesn't make much difference, so the "excellent fitness" and the "pretty good fitness" athletes have very similar probabilities of having an event. It happens everywhere. If it happens in the water....

What if we did triathlon's backwards? Would the same % of people have heart attacks during the run, but perhaps half of them survive? Then the death rates would be similar to other non-water based endurance events.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Jun 13, 19 10:27
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Red cross suggests 2 LG's any time a pool is open and up to 50 swimmers. They suggest for every 25 additional swimmers, 1 LG be added. //

You're not really suggesting we use the Red Cross guidelines, the ones they use for pools of kids, some of who are complete non swimmers who need to touch bottom?


Red Cross is kind of like 220 minus your age to get your HR, an archaic number based on nothing but someone just making it up one day and saying, "This is it!"


There are different numbers out there, we set up one in LA county, but that was largely based on the fact that they hated Jack Caress and his LA triathlon. SO their number was to get rid of him, and now they are afraid to lower it, no one wants to be that person who advocate for less lifeguards. Why, because then they get pointed to when something happens, which something always happens eventually. There is no upside, so the ridiculous number just sits there.


To me, it all depends on the situation. IF you actually had a race in 6ft surf, (not wind chop folks, that is not surf) then you would need a lot at the start and finish of the race. If it is a calm lake swim on a clear day, then you will need less. And of course you have all the different ways to start a race now, so you have to take that into consideration too, mass starts need a lot at the beginning, time trials need more of a zone.


Main thing is that you have real lifeguards, not the local swim team, or pool employees, or whoever volunteers. Get the people that get paid to lifeguard those spots when there is no race, or some similar venue nearby. One real lifeguard is worth more than 10 swim team kids you threw out there on wavestorms..
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I still think the biggest hurdle is always going to be the water itself. That's from being able to execute a rescue for the rescuers that may or may not even be close and/or immediately spot the emergency; to actually keeping yourself afloat in the event of an emergency. Like everyone has been saying, you have an heart episode on land, you simply fall to the ground, but you don't have to "fight" to stay alive from anything else. Add in people around you, add in the fact that those people also aren't "looking out" for you either, only really the lifeguards. Sure you may spot something when sighting, but no one out there is actively monitoring to see if someone is having an drowning episode like it's so easily seen on the bike or run.

Add in the fact that I'm guessing *most* of the time, the LG's are just some 19 year old kid who's LG at the local swimming pool. It's just a scenario that when shit goes wrong, it can go wrong badly. And I dont think it's "neglect", cus how many deaths are we talking about? Less than 200 in how many triathlon events? I just think it's the worst perfect storm scenario when it's the worst kind of medical emergency.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
Red Cross is kind of like 220 minus your age to get your HR, an archaic number based on nothing but someone just making it up one day and saying, "This is it!"

Sounds a lot like you just made THAT up. Have you done any research to confirm if the Red Cross has a basis for their number?
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [commendatore] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sounds a lot like you just made THAT up. Have you done any research to confirm if the Red Cross has a basis for their number? //

Of course it is just a made up number, they all are. When I put on races, I just made up a number that I believed to be adequate. When I look at a Red Cross number, and it is the same for a bunch of 5 year olds who cannot swim, as it is for the swim team that trains 10k a day, then I call bullshit. 100 people in a pool are not equal, just as they are not equal in a triathlon. A certain amount of common sense has to be applied, as well as some experience. Thus my comment that real lifeguards should be in charge of this dynamic, not some bureaucrat at USAT, or the Red Cross. I think minimum guidelines are fine, but it should be minimum, not some arbitrary number like 1 to 15, or 10 even, those are maximum guidelines...
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
B_Doughtie wrote:
Another google search has "The Aquatics Counsel" suggesting a 1 LG: 75 swimmers ratio (this isn't detailed whether pool or open water environment)


2500 race would mean 33 LG's. Most WTC events have multiple professional marine specialists in boats and so I'm assuming say 3 of them on a boat would "count".


From the Door County Triathlon...... Good pre race statement here:

http://www.doorcountytriathlon.com/...AUelTPcLPu3ftqlF3trM


"
  • USA Triathlon, which sanctions the DCT, requires 1 lifeguard for every 35 swimmers in the water for ocean/Great Lakes swims. Based on our participation totals (maximum of 400 swimmers in the water at any time) and the possibility of wavy conditions, the DCT is required to staff a minimum of 12 lifeguards each day. In reality, the DCT staffs over twice this amount with 25-30 lifeguards on duty each day. We work closely with the local YMCA to provide experienced lifeguards who receive open water swim safety training at Murphy Park prior to the race each year."
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Gary, good find and information makes sense.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
B_Doughtie wrote:
Gary, good find and information makes sense.

Thanks Brooks. I thought it was well thought out and well timed, as we just have had 3 lost in two weeks here. One was in my wave, so close to home. Hopefully folks will pay more attention to their swim training and recognize any ill effects before it becomes an issue.
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [dswezey] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dswezey wrote:
This issue is complicated with many facets to discuss. The big one is that if you have a heart attack when running or biking you are not also in a position to drown. And, its much more obvious to competitors and bystanders that action needs to be taken. Even in a pool at a swim meet it would be obvious to everyone watching that something wasn't right and pull the victim out. Not so much in open water.


My main suggestion would be for more lifeguards on the swim course. Maybe there should be a required ratio of X# guards to swimmers.


It is very hard to recognize someone that is truly drowning VS someone that is distressed and needs help.

Someone that is actually drowning there is No yelling, No waving. Just a silent gasping for air and 20 to 60 seconds later, submersion. And someone has drowned, maybe in plain site. "Drowning is not the violent, splashing call for help that most people expect," That happens before you start to drown.

Why someone starts drowning can be from any number of issues. Many of which have been addressed in some way on this forum. Some are;

Poor fitness/Skill? IMO If you are in a wetsuit, its a lot harder to drown for these reasons. Its not from lack of buoyancy where you exhaust yourself and sink. While this may happen it may be the least likely. I'm not suggesting it doesn't happen because people have drowned with a life preserver on or in a shallow tub.

SIPE - This is real but only happens in a small number of cases. It is often preceded by a very obvious coughing situation. This is where having more lifeguards on course could make a big difference where there are clear signs of trouble.

Cardiac or other sudden issue that is unknown and unforeseen even by the very fit athlete. What is anyone supposed to do about this? Go back to the "silent drowning" issue. Only if they are lucky and flag at first sign of their own distress or they have an aware competitor or life guard is there a chance to save and resuscitate.

This post is spot on. I don't think the issue is lack of preparation or even availability of warm-up or tightness of the wetsuit. I just think that there are some athletes that have diagnosed or un-diagnosed heart conditions that show up on the swim simply because it is the first leg of their race day. If this happened in a marathon it would be much more surviveable because people can see when someone drops in the middle of the road. Events like this in the water are harder to survive unless someone is specifically watching out for you. I believe this is the root issue with the deaths in the water.

I believe the idea of increasing the number of lifeguards per participants is absolutely the best way to address this issue. People who run into these unforeseen issues in a swim need better chances of survival. I think wetsuits, even if a bit too warm, are key to survive a heart event like this and then you need enough people out there to notice that someone is bobbing unresponsive in the water. I would say expand the temps where wetsuits are legal and increase the number of lifeguards. These approaches increase the chances for athletes to survive these heart issues. If the industry keeps trying to attack the root cause of the heart issues they will just be chasing their tails.

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [Lock_N_Load] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't think the issue is lack of preparation or even availability of warm-up or tightness of the wetsuit. //

Really, none of these seem like they could be factors that go into the basket that causes these events? What again do you think is the cause of the deaths, and based on what exactly??


I agree having more qualified lifeguards is always a good thing, that I'm on board with...
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Allow me to add a different perspective on this from a lifeguard that has been hired for water safety at a local, to me, IM event. (B2B formerly and now IMNC)

While I do agree that having a large number of guards present can help with general water safety and medical issues to a certain extent, in some cases however, it simply does not matter. I would think (and I may be wrong) that most of the cardiac issues that result in swimmers deaths are large scale cardiac issues, thus meaning that no matter how many guards you have and no matter how fast aid is rendered there isn't a whole lot that can be done. I say this because a couple years ago here at IMNC we had a swimmer die. I was and am still friends with the first guards on scene. They had the gentleman out of the water pretty quick and was providing aid as soon as possible. And from talking to them I got the impression that there wasn't a whole lot that could have been done.


So i guess my point is that having a ton of guards will not prevent all deaths but they will help by stopping little things snowballing into very bad things. People previously have said that, "the wetsuits are too tight", "people can't warm up", "people aren't comfortable in OW", while these may be true for some people and not for others, having guards will allow people feeling anxiety from these reasons to get those people out of harms way before they become a much larger issue.

Sorry if I rambled.

_________________________________________________
When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry if I rambled. //

You kind of did, but I think I got the gist of your point. No one said that more lifeguards was going to prevent all these deaths. In fact, I would presume that more lifeguards does more to help those we never hear about, thankfully. You are right in your assessment that once a really bad cardiac event happens, it is going to be really hard to impossible to convert that person. People that just actually drown, they are good candidates for conversions. People that have actual heart attacks, not so much.


CPR is not super effective in the best of circumstances, defibrillators are in the range of 30% if you can get them on someone with a shockable rhythm. But that is the key, it has to be shockable in the first place. Think of the heart like an engine, if you pull off the spark plug wires and try to start it, nothing. If it is titled and no gas is getting to it, then you right it, then you can start it again. Heart conversions are like that, a heart that just had severe trauma as in a massive heart attack, is not converted in most cases. If you drown and your lack of breathing stops your heart, that one can come back more easily..


I had two friend in pools surrounded by paramedics who were on scene right when the event happened with defibrillators, and nothing was going to convert them. I believe when Steve Larsen dropped on the running track, he was there with a paramedic buddy, but it was also a lost cause. My old friend George Wright fell over on a group ride at the top of a hill he just went way too hard on, surrounded by EMT's, but once again, he was gone the moment he fell. I think that a lot of these deaths are just like this, and that is why being Johnny on the spot with all the gear is just not going to help "THEM". But there are countless others they are helping, often just giving an island to grab and rest on, and alleviating the anxiety of feeling poorly and looking out there and seeing no one..
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
Sorry if I rambled. //

You kind of did,




_________________________________________________
When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [Turd Ferguson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Interesting article posted yesterday on Runners World about energy drinks and their adverse health effects.

https://www.runnersworld.com/...eart-problems-study/

It makes me wonder if any of these deaths are due to 'wake up juice'. I have shown up for early morning group rides only to find a rider or two downing a redbull or monster in order to get jump started before we head out. Personally I avoid them but I have also seen triathletes setting up T1 downing energy drinks before heading off for the swim.

I also remember reading about a healthy runner that died at the London Marathon and the death attributed to a now-banned substance.

https://www.theguardian.com/...nner-death-stimulant

I don't even drink coffee before I race although in college I remember that being somewhat of a staple with my cross-country team on our team bus as we headed to an early Saturday morning meet.
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon has a swimming Problem [jdyer100] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jdyer100 wrote:
Interesting article posted yesterday on Runners World about energy drinks and their adverse health effects.

https://www.runnersworld.com/...eart-problems-study/

It makes me wonder if any of these deaths are due to 'wake up juice'. I have shown up for early morning group rides only to find a rider or two downing a redbull or monster in order to get jump started before we head out. Personally I avoid them but I have also seen triathletes setting up T1 downing energy drinks before heading off for the swim.

I also remember reading about a healthy runner that died at the London Marathon and the death attributed to a now-banned substance.

https://www.theguardian.com/...nner-death-stimulant

I don't even drink coffee before I race although in college I remember that being somewhat of a staple with my cross-country team on our team bus as we headed to an early Saturday morning meet.

I find it interesting that I see none or very few women having the issue....
Quote Reply

Prev Next