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Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through
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Just curious to get the collective take on correct etiquette when the call to roll through on a group ride is given.

My understanding (and practice) is that as I reach the front I am already slowing and as I move across I am looking under my arm at the front wheel of the recovering lead cyclist, trying to position my back wheel close to their front so as not to require them to break cadence and put in any effort to get onto my wheel.

What has been frustrating me is people flying past and gapping me by about 2-3m. If every person thereafter did the same then the group would need to be in a constant state of acceleration trying to get the draft.

To me you want the overtaken person to get protection as soon as possible. Making them have to accelerate after an effort seems like bad practice.

Or have I got it wrong?
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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You're referencing a pace line? Yeah, no need to get on the riders wheel just keep falling back until the last man is coming up. Then you need to start ramping up to jump on the last man's wheel. The rider pulling through should keep a steady pace until clear of the man they are passing then move over and ease off the pace.

ETA: A pace line performed properly, imo, should never have a single rider on the front. i.e. the next person up should be coming up next to the lead rider as they are clearing the passed rider.

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Last edited by: LAI: Apr 9, 19 8:02
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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Somewhere in between. If you're slowing already before you even really pull, you are causing those behind who have just pulled off themselves you to slow or brake. Take a decent pull then pull off. Don't speed up beyond what you were doing in the draft. This game of trying to be as close to the person's front wheel as possible isn't necessary and is going to put someone on the ground. If someone still wants to rocket past on their pull just let them sit in the wind a while. No need for anyone to catch up to them, and they'll eventually get the point. A polite pointer to this behavior is also useful.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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When you pull through your accelerating and you back off a tiny bit until the next guy can get past you but your immediately on his wheel. If you’re getting gapped right there it’s likely you’re pulling through a little too hard and backing off a little too much once yiou are over, which no offense is what a lot of new riders do.

Watch what the most experienced guys do, they’re barely out of the slipstream.

If you’re feeling super strong you can keep it a little harder once you pull through and over to make it harder on the next guy to pull through, but that can be pretty irritating and counterproductive if then people just can’t pull through.

You pretty much never have to look back when you’re pulling over. That is a bad and dangerous habit. You should be able to feel it pretty easy.

Good luck.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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The following is based off most of my road riding being done with groups of competitive roadies who will practice race craft during group rides.

There is a difference between pulling through in the typical group peloton and the expectation if you are practicing an actual race paceline.
Since you state "call to roll through on group ride" I would think you are describing what happens during the group peloton ride.
Typically I see that for the group peloton ride there will be longer pulls for the individual(s) at the front dependent on fitness/training - but when you pull off the front you are then expected to go to the very rear of the peloton, so there should be no issue for the person pulling through to have any impact on you as you will be slotting in to the rear.
But there are a large number of variations on how a peloton can rotate through which may be dependent on the area you are riding, during our rides we switch between single and double lines and double rider pull-off to clockwise/counter-clockwise rotation (depending on wind) - but the whole group knows and expects these switches to occur.
If you are referring to a pace-line having the rider being passed call out a simple "clear" so you know when you can move over without taking your view away from the front is useful. The pace-line should be a constant pace once moving along, no speeding up/slowing down, just a constant rotation of riders where the benefit you get is that you are only in the wind for seconds so your power output changes, but your speed does not.

If the group is not experienced riding together and there was no communication at the beginning of the ride as to how the group is expected to ride - sorry, I'm turning the other way and having a solo day.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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In my experience there are two different types of group pacelines - the rotating paceline and the "ride up front until you've pulled your share" paceline.

With the rotating paceline you essentially have two lines of riders - one line rotating towards the front and one line rotating towards the back. Which line is rotating towards the front depends on wind direction. The line rotating towards the front is the group's pace and there are no accelerations. As soon as you get to the front, you rotate to the line rotating to the back. The line rotating towards the back is riding slightly slower than the other line. It's one continuous, fluid rotating group if ALL members participating know what they are doing. As soon as you get a rider that gets up front and stays there, the fluidity and pace of the group is disrupted. If the group is big enough and the road wide enough and traffic is light enough, you can work a double-rotating paceline but that's the 2nd semester Paceline class.

With "Pull Your Share" pacelines, once a rider gets up front, he or she will stay there for how long they are comfortable and then pull over letting the next person stay up front for how long they are comfortable. These pacelines tend to be single-file because the duration that someone stays up front prohibits multiple lines unless you have two people sitting up front side by side doing the "Pull Your Share" (not uncommon when groups are early in the ride and warming up the legs for the first hour). The pace of the group with this type of paceline will vary based on the strength of the rider up front. Some folks get up front and really dial it up either to get a harder workout in or thin the herd, while others get up front and do the opposite.

Just my n=1 experience to date.


Tad

It took awhile, but I finally discovered that its not the destination that's important, but rather the journey.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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T-wrecks wrote:
Somewhere in between. If you're slowing already before you even really pull, you are causing those behind who have just pulled off themselves you to slow or brake. Take a decent pull then pull off. Don't speed up beyond what you were doing in the draft. This game of trying to be as close to the person's front wheel as possible isn't necessary and is going to put someone on the ground. If someone still wants to rocket past on their pull just let them sit in the wind a while. No need for anyone to catch up to them, and they'll eventually get the point. A polite pointer to this behavior is also useful.

Feels to me that some ego centric upper cat riders love to do this and act like everyone else isn't holding pace. Then complain. "Oh, I surged, but you all didn't pull". No, you surged.

I've noticed folks sometimes instead of moving left off the front, moving up and over. Like jumping a half length. What's up with that?

I'd love to practice it more, but it always seems like in these situations 1/2 to 1/3 of folks just want to surge surge surge and measure their johnsons instead of have a good rotation.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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A very simple addition to our ride protocol has helped keep the rotating pace line together. When the rider on the right is far enough ahead that he can safely pull off to the left hand line the lead rider on the left simply calls out "clear". We're just a bunch of MAMiLs getting exercise so that little practice keeps the lead rider from misjudging and getting ahead. I know it sounds dumb but it sure is effective.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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There are so many personalities and motivations going on all at once that it takes awhile to figure out the group dynamic on any given day.

My plan is to always have someone weaker or at my level on my wheel. That way, when I pull off the pace doesn't go up right away. For me, it's a pain to pull be winded/tired while the pace goes up.

I'm not one to increase the pace while on the front. I'm one to hold the pace and then pull off before the pace drops. It usually irritates riders when pace drops. If stronger riders want to increase the pace, that means that my pull at the front will probably be shorter so I can survive. I don't really give a rip as a racer or tourist if someone thinks I took a short pull.


Some group rides are more "cooperative" than others.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT wrote:
It usually irritates riders when pace drops. If stronger riders want to increase the pace, that means that my pull at the front will probably be shorter so I can survive. I don't really give a rip as a racer or tourist if someone thinks I took a short pull.


Some group rides are more "cooperative" than others.

Question on this.

What keeps the strongest rider(s) from perpetually lifting the pace harder and harder each time they come through the rotation?

Let's say on the flats it starts rolling 24. Strong folks rotate through. Next time you come up front everyone is at 25. Strong folks rotate through again. Now we're at 26. Then 27.

I've been on rides like that.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Again, it's the communication (pre and intra ride) that makes this work and brings the fun.

Changing the culture of any group ride is a moot point. If it's surgy and punchy, it serves a different purpose for the workout.

But, try getting 4-10 of your buddies to buy into some paceline rides and watch what happens!...Lower RPE, faster times. Make sure the lightweight climbers know to consider those who don't weigh in at 140 lbs. And, vice versa. Those that can descend and rip the flats need to keep the featherweights in mind during their pulls. This is what I was thinking of with your question. It has be open that everyone is working together for better numbers at the end of the ride for all those contributing to the paceline work.

We've been doing this and it's been fun seeing it evolve. The cohesion gets better every week. It's a 'Ride before The Ride'. It's teamwork for about 1.5 hrs, maybe 2, then we merge into a group ride and just settle into their behavior for the day. 'Most' group rides are like pickup basketball games. You never know how structured, controlled, safe it is going to be until you are knee deep into it. So, we've started our own controlled ride that gives us a different kind of challenge than just slugging it out with the bigger groups every time.




"Outwork your talent." Kevin McHale
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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When you are in a pace line, your recovery phase doesn’t start until you are moving forward again!!! People think their job is done once they’ve pulled off the front but they are wrong.

Step 1 - pull smooth and steady. Assuming the road isn’t pitching and rolling, it should be the same speed as the prior pull. Do NOT smash the pedals and accelerate when it’s your turn to pull. If gaps are opening when you pull, you are going too hard for a rolling paceline.

Step 2 - Rotate INTO the wind and begin blocking the wind for the folks about to pull.

Step 3 - get back on, at the back.

Step 4 - Recover in the draft until you get to the front again.

Repeat.
Last edited by: Ohio_Roadie: Apr 9, 19 13:04
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:


Question on this.

What keeps the strongest rider(s) from perpetually lifting the pace harder and harder each time they come through the rotation?

Let's say on the flats it starts rolling 24. Strong folks rotate through. Next time you come up front everyone is at 25. Strong folks rotate through again. Now we're at 26. Then 27.

I've been on rides like that.

Sounds like a "competitive" ride and nobody wants to say Uncle.

I just keep taking shorter pulls to where I'm just pulling through and then swinging off.

When I can no longer pull through, I stay on the back as a "sweeper" and let the rider coming back go in front of me so I'm always the last rider.

And then I'll go off the back or someone will let a gap happen and we become two groups of riders.

From the beginning of the ride, have the strong riders do more work. Don't do equal work even if you feel OK at the beginning. Stronger riders will drop you later. Try to get to the point of seeing them tire out so you can better judge how much you can contribute in the future.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Ohio_Roadie wrote:


When you are in a pace line, your recovery phase doesn’t start until you are moving forward again!!! People think their job is done once they’ve pulled off the front but they are wrong.

Step 1 - pull smooth and steady. Assuming the road isn’t pitching and rolling, it should be the same speed as the prior pull. Do NOT smash the pedals and accelerate when it’s your turn to pull. If gaps are opening when you pull, you are going too hard for a rolling paceline.

Step 2 - Rotate INTO the wind and begin blocking the wind for the folks about to pull.

Step 3 - get back on, at the back.

Step 4 - Recover in the draft until you get to the front again.

Repeat.

Amen mate. Especially on point 2.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
IT wrote:
It usually irritates riders when pace drops. If stronger riders want to increase the pace, that means that my pull at the front will probably be shorter so I can survive. I don't really give a rip as a racer or tourist if someone thinks I took a short pull.


Some group rides are more "cooperative" than others.


Question on this.

What keeps the strongest rider(s) from perpetually lifting the pace harder and harder each time they come through the rotation?

Let's say on the flats it starts rolling 24. Strong folks rotate through. Next time you come up front everyone is at 25. Strong folks rotate through again. Now we're at 26. Then 27.

I've been on rides like that.

Assuming the terrain is flat and the wind is pretty constant...and for comparison sake, let's assume that all riders are the same weight, cda, rolling resistance, etc.

Let's say the group is going 24 mph, while you're sitting in the draft, you're in your 50/15 gear at 90 rpms. It's also taking you about 200-225 watts to maintain this. When it's you're turn to hit the front, you don't change anything except your power output. Your gear selection and cadence remains the same and you continue to travel at 24 mph...it just requires 260-285 watts to keep that speed at the front. The person who just pulled off the front bears the responsibility to gradually reduce their speed...say to ~23 mph, and you will eventually pass them and "pull through" without changing your speed. Thus the speed of all the people behind you doesn't change either. When the person who just pulled off the front has their front wheel clear of your back wheel, you move over in front of them, then you gradually back down to 23 mph so the person who was behind you (previously doing 200-225 watts at 24 mph), and is now "at the front" can move past you at 24 mph at 260-285 watts...thus the speed of the group as a whole never changes.

The problem with people who never have done a rotating paceline is that they feel when it's their turn to hit the front, they know they have to apply more power, but in doing so, they apply too much power. In turn they increase their cadence...or worse...you hear them shift to a harder gear. That's when the speed increases...suddenly they are in 50/15 gear at 97 rpms, going 25.6 mph and using up 300-320 watts...thus the rider behind them in the draft is now requiring to also ride 50/15 at 97 rpms and using 240-260 watts in the draft. Rinse repeat and this goes on until the group is going so fast that nobody can keep up or maintain the pace required to move to the front.

The only time the speed at the front should increase is if you start to go downhill or the wind changes favorably. In the above example on a flat road, we assumed the rider at the front is doing 260-285 watts at 24 mph. If the road suddenly goes to a -2% grade, then obviously you don't want the person at the front to just coast, or soft pedal at 120 watts simply to maintain the 24 mph speed. It is expected the speed will increase, but generally the increase is gradual, and still represents around a 260-285 watt effort at the front. So it might end up being that the rider at the front is now doing 32 mph at 260-285, and the rider behind him is also doing 32 mph at 200-225 watts. When the road eventually flattens out or goes back slightly uphill, the opposite of course happens. You want the rider at the front to gradually back down the speed as the effort required to say up front shouldn't change much...again...260-285 watts and 200-225 watts in the draft.

It takes a lot of experienced riders for this to work well...which is often why it doesn't work well.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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If the group isn't doing a a rotating pace line, it's real simple. When the guy in front of you pulls off, pick up your effort enough to maintain the current pace. There is nothing worse than someone who immediately surges when they get on the front (remember there is a guy dropping back who just got off the front). If it's the kind of ride that allows stronger riders to drive a higher pace, just be cool and slowly lift the pace. Everything is smooth and efficient.

If it's a rotating pace line, think of it as 2 independent lines of riders with one line riding just slightly faster than the other. If there is any cross wind, the slower line is always blocking the wind. The lead rider in the slower line has the most influence setting the pace for the group (because the faster line always has to move just slightly faster than that guy). As the lead guy in the faster line moves past the lead rider of the slower line and, he eases over slowly as he's passing. You actually want to start easing over before you are totally clear so it's sort of like sliding into a open spot. Now that rider at the front of the slow line is controlling the pace for the group because the next guy needs to ease past him. Yes, he needs to ease just slightly slower as he slides over, but there is no significant reduction in effort since he's still in the wind and he has nobody blocking any cross winds. The #1 problem with your typical "shop ride" rotating pace line is people who significantly decrease their effort as soon as they slide to the slower line. The key to getting a fast and smooth pace line is to practice with a very minimal difference in speed between the 2 lines. Let it take 15+ seconds for each rider to pull through. Once you can do that smoothly, you can increase the speed of the rotation. Smooth is fast. When done properly in a group of cyclists of similar abilities, you can fly.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds like you're describing a rotating paceline. You definitely shouldn't be trying to move over as close as possible to the front wheel of the guy you're moving infront of, a little space is always appreciated. It sounds also sounds like you're either dropping the pace too much once you move over or the rider in front of you isn't letting off enough once he moves over. There's usually one or two guys in every group that do this and talking to them usually solves the issue. The whole point is to be as smooth as possible.

This is one of the groups I ride with that exclusively rotate:

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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [bluto] [ In reply to ]
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bluto wrote:
If the group isn't doing a a rotating pace line, it's real simple. When the guy in front of you pulls off, pick up your effort enough to maintain the current pace. There is nothing worse than someone who immediately surges when they get on the front (remember there is a guy dropping back who just got off the front). If it's the kind of ride that allows stronger riders to drive a higher pace, just be cool and slowly lift the pace. Everything is smooth and efficient.

If it's a rotating pace line, think of it as 2 independent lines of riders with one line riding just slightly faster than the other. If there is any cross wind, the slower line is always blocking the wind. The lead rider in the slower line has the most influence setting the pace for the group (because the faster line always has to move just slightly faster than that guy). As the lead guy in the faster line moves past the lead rider of the slower line and, he eases over slowly as he's passing. You actually want to start easing over before you are totally clear so it's sort of like sliding into a open spot. Now that rider at the front of the slow line is controlling the pace for the group because the next guy needs to ease past him. Yes, he needs to ease just slightly slower as he slides over, but there is no significant reduction in effort since he's still in the wind and he has nobody blocking any cross winds. The #1 problem with your typical "shop ride" rotating pace line is people who significantly decrease their effort as soon as they slide to the slower line. The key to getting a fast and smooth pace line is to practice with a very minimal difference in speed between the 2 lines. Let it take 15+ seconds for each rider to pull through. Once you can do that smoothly, you can increase the speed of the rotation. Smooth is fast. When done properly in a group of cyclists of similar abilities, you can fly.

This sounds closest to what I am thinking in my mind. When I previously said I was trying to move across as close to the front wheel of the lead recovering rider I meant more that I was trying to slot in, like you referred to. I peek below my elbow if I don't hear 'clear' being called, so that I know I am not gapping nor getting too close.

My #1 issue is the guy following me up the rotating pace line who just seems to accelerate away and keeps that power down. Often the next 2-3 guys do likewise and suddenly I'm having to surge to bridge a gap that should not exist. Otherwise the guys behind me are going to have to start braking more than usual as I fade without the protection I should be getting having pulled.

Too many people surge. I like to react slowly to buffer these surges out as much as possible.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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As you move to take the front position in the paceline DO NOT look down at the wheel you are moving in front of.
Keep your eyes on the road, and move purposely but not abruptly into that slot.
Your peripheral vision should be all you need to know that you are good.
Yelling "clear" is not necessary and can cause an accident.
The rider in the slot ahead of you in the paceline (and now behind you as you take the lead) should be adjusting his position accordingly as you roll through.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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As others have said, you shouldn't be slowing until after you've pulled over (otherwise you're slowing the group down). And don't need to be too close to the guy you're pulling in front of - he's getting wind protection from the front and the side, as well as being in the slower line, so a little extra room is preferable to cutting things too tight.

You're spot on about smoothing out the surges, the fastest rides are when the speed hardly varies at all and nobody has to surge or accelerate. I think the biggest challenge to riding in a rotating pace line is that it's simply very difficult to get a big enough group (ideally need at least 8) with similar fitness. And since there is no way for people to do a harder or easier pull and everybody is effectively doing the same amount of work, then even fairly small differences in fitness will result in stronger riders getting frustrated that it's too easy and/or weaker riders being spat out the back. Even if you have stronger riders who are prepared to throttle back to keep the group together, it's hard for them to know how much to throttle back since it's not easy to know how much others are suffering unless they tell you (and they usually don't!).

The ones I've been in that have worked best is when the riders are very similar and experienced in that kind of riding and/or where the group (and route and conditions) stays pretty consistent for a number of weeks so that we can all figure out what kind of pace is possible before people start blowing out the back. Lots of communication before and during the ride really helps as well. E.g. agreeing a conservative target pace/power for at least the first section of the ride, and then communicating before taking it up from there. Telling weaker riders that it's OK to sit out of the rotation for a turn or 2 on the back for extra recovery also helps. Other option to help keep the stronger riders in check is agreeing before the start that there'll be a section of ride after the rotating paceline where they'll have the opportunity to cut loose and burn some matches, that way it's less frustrating sticking to an agreed speed/power during the paceline section of the ride.

Personally I don't think rotating paceline is the best format most of the time. Awesome if you have a tightknit group who know each other and know what they're doing. But if it's a mixed ability/experience ride, or even worse a fairly open group/club ride where different riders show up every week, then much better to have riders determining the length of their own pulls (in either single or double lines) and then rotating right to the back. That way everybody gets a better workout.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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How is the guy at front getting wind protection; he’s at the front? I base my actions on how others seem to ride when cutting across me. They keep gapping the life out of me and I’m generally one of the stronger ones.

Weekdays I ride with a small group of regulars and we know each other very well. It works.

The weekend ride is a bunch of strangers and it seems like people are trying to prove themselves. It shows. At the end of the 50k ride there’s generally 5-6 left taking turns. Out of the 20+ who started.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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The guy you're pulling in front of gets wind protection once you're in front of him. No need to cut it too fine as he's moving backwards and recovering anyway, so all things being equal he'd rather you were a bit generous and gave him an extra couple of feet than try and get it inch-perfect and have him worry that your rear wheel is going to sideswipe him. Of course you don't want to go too far and give such a big gap that he feels he needs to accelerate.

Weekday ride sounds great, we used to have a group like that and it was some of the best rotating paceline riding I've done. Weekend ride sounds like one that is totally unsuitable for rotating paceline. I would suggest you either find a different ride or suggest to the organisers that they change the format. 20+ is too big for a paceline IMO even if everybody knows what they're doing, with strangers and different abilities it's a recipe for chaos. Much better to have the rider (or riders if riding 2 abreast) doing a self-determined pull at the front and then peeling off and dropping all the way to the back. That way stronger riders can do longer pulls (longer not harder, particularly on gradients), weaker riders can do shorter ones, and if there's a really big variation in the group's abilities then weaker riders still have the option of hanging at the back and the stronger ones just cut in a bit earlier.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [mv2005] [ In reply to ]
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There seems to be slightly different regimes used by different clubs or in different regions.
What I'm used to is a group riding 2-abreast, with the column on the right rolling up and the left column rolling back. Bear in mind we drive on the left here, so the advancing column is on the traffic side.

When roll-up is called, the left lead rider will back off slightly and the right lead rider moves to the left once they're ahead of them. This puts a new rider at the front of the right column and they need to raise their effort to come alongside at the front.

Only 2 riders should have to change their effort significantly:
  1. The rider moving back from the left lead position can ease a little and will then be able to avail of the draft once the other lead moves across.
  2. The new lead rider moving up on the right will lose the draft so, obviously, needs to raise effort to maintain a steady pace. They also need to push a little more for long enough to move up to their fellow lead rider.

Everyone on the right column also needs a small additional effort long enough to advance one bike. But if the leaders do things smoothly this is easy enough.
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Re: Educate me on the group (peleton) roll-through [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Great advice, appreciate it.

Sounds to me like a great argument for regular club memberships or team memberships. Regular folks at similar fitness who know the deal.

One glaring problem with local group rides I've seen happening over the last couple years is the cessation of the "roll call and protocol" talk before rolling out. It's like "ok, A's are going, B's go in 5min....let's roll".

Leaders or regulars need to be announcing the ride "norms" each ride if they notice folks there who aren't there most weeks.

This can eliminate a lot of misunderstandings.

I found myself on the front, pulling and asking with labored breath........"straight or left turn". I knew the route, but it was being cut short for rain/storms and nobody said what was being cut out or done. No answers. We motor straight instead and I lift as we get within 200 yards of the turn expecting the turn.....making folks upset.

There'd have been no problem if folks announced the route update.
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