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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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"Hilly" is a matter of perspective. I'm in central VA. The Saturday training ride for the road club I used to ride with (and hopefully will again once I drop 20kg) was 52.8 miles with over 2500 feet of climbing. Every Saturday. Two years ago, while riding in FL, someone said, "You're" not from around here, are you?" I said, "No, is it the accent?" He said, "No, you can climb!" We went over the Intercostal Waterway...

My sister lives in CO and has trouble getting a ride in that doesn't have 2500 ft of climbing. And she'd drop me in a heartbeat.

I have a friend who climbs better on his Shiv than his Tarmac. But he rides his Shiv 4 times as much.

Getting a good road bike would change things up a bit for you. You could likely drop a bit of weight off your current Tri bike. More hill work may benefit you more. You know the old saying, "Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades."

We have a State Hillclimb Championship in VA. It used to be 6.75 miles with 2620 ft of climbing, about a 7.1% average grade with a couple of brief 15% ramps. It's a little longer now, with just a bit more climbing. I had a sub 12b bike. I'm faster up that hill on my 15.5lb Colnago. So, weight isn't everything.

Finally, search Dan's old articles. I vaguely remember him writing one about climbing on his Tri bike.
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [FatandSlow] [ In reply to ]
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The climbs we did were 7-12%. I just looked and I did grab one KOM on a bunny hill at 4.1%. Decent effort but not smashing the hills.

The reality is that the guy on a road bike has an advantage on steeper hills due to geometry and center of gravity. I’m not going to embarrass myself, but snagging KOM’s against climbers on Uber light road bikes is another story all together.

FatandSlow wrote:
"Hilly" is a matter of perspective. I'm in central VA. The Saturday training ride for the road club I used to ride with (and hopefully will again once I drop 20kg) was 52.8 miles with over 2500 feet of climbing. Every Saturday. Two years ago, while riding in FL, someone said, "You're" not from around here, are you?" I said, "No, is it the accent?" He said, "No, you can climb!" We went over the Intercostal Waterway...

My sister lives in CO and has trouble getting a ride in that doesn't have 2500 ft of climbing. And she'd drop me in a heartbeat.

I have a friend who climbs better on his Shiv than his Tarmac. But he rides his Shiv 4 times as much.

Getting a good road bike would change things up a bit for you. You could likely drop a bit of weight off your current Tri bike. More hill work may benefit you more. You know the old saying, "Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades."

We have a State Hillclimb Championship in VA. It used to be 6.75 miles with 2620 ft of climbing, about a 7.1% average grade with a couple of brief 15% ramps. It's a little longer now, with just a bit more climbing. I had a sub 12b bike. I'm faster up that hill on my 15.5lb Colnago. So, weight isn't everything.

Finally, search Dan's old articles. I vaguely remember him writing one about climbing on his Tri bike.
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, to open with I've got an Argon E-114 and am 'handy' on a bike, although possibly not the uber biker you appear to be (I'm assumng those KOMs were against several hundred other riders, not bizarre rarely ridden routes).

I have a synapse road bike that I use for club rides and will normally be near the front on climbs (way out the back on descents, that's another thread) and blocking out the whines of mercy on the flat as I'm sat on the front using my TT conditioning.

I would never dream of taking the Argon on a group ride with the roadies for several reasons, but the main being I'd get dropped as soon as we hit the hills (which are all around us). Typically we'll do 130km a ride with 1500-2200, climbing. It's not that I can't climb all of those hills on the TT, but it's that I'd climb diffferently. When we go up as a bunch we're taking turns in the lead, and that means sometimes you need to surge more than you would ideally, other times you're recovering / riding within. I can't 'surge' as well on the argon not really for weight reasons, but position and power transfer.

You've not mentioned wheels, but if you're using deep/heavy wheels then thats a huge issue on climbs due to the rotational momentum for all the speed changes.

Regarding speed changes, we all know the basics that on the flat weight isn't an issue at constant speed. Put onto a constant slope and it starts to make a difference, with some simple maths showing it's more influential as the gradient increases. So in a group at zero to low gradient then the light guys need to put out more watts / kg to get past the air resistance. As the gradient increases and the speed decreses then it's the vertical resistance that plays a bigger role. So as you climb any real world hill then the gradients vary, sometimes it's flat enough to still favour the heavier / stronger rider, other times it's more biased to the 55kg climber.

I get my TT power off the back of pushing myself to the max on the road bike and being motivated to go over the red line for short intervals throughout those rides, then get use that as the platform for the steady power TT sessions during the week / in spring.

Back to your question - you're at a performance level where any compromise on kit is going to frustrate you. At teh moment the E-112 isn't a major limiter for Tri if the setup and your other kit choices are sensible. But it's a noticable limiter on 'road' rides. If you tried to get a 'do it all' then you'd still be at disadvantage to the roadies, but lose more on the tri.

Getting any half decent road bike (second hand, 9/10 speed 105 or better) is going to be a positive on those group rides.
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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mwanner13 wrote:
These guys are pure cyclists and not triathletes. They won’t be showing up to a Century, Metric Century or hilly group ride on a triathlon bike. I’m sure I can handle them on rollers and definitely on a flat ride, but on a ride with significant elevation, I’m not hanging on a triathlon bike. I agree that time can be made up, provided you’re not doing one climb after the next.

quote MattyK]
mwanner13 wrote:
5’8.5” 149 lbs and under 10% BF.
So you plus bike is about 170lb. At best you could take maybe 6 lb off the bike (3.5%), and that still leaves you 20lb heavier than your friend.
And that only helps when climbing, and hurts you everywhere else (flats, downhill) if it's at the compromise of aero.

Unless you have a race that starts at the bottom of a hill and ends at the top, don't worry about it. Just ride the heavy bike, use the extra effort to make you stronger, and crush your friends on race day.
[/quote]
I think you are missing the most important factor- you are a triathlete, and presumably don’t just ride, but also train swimming and running.
If you want to be on an even playing field with your roadie buddies, ask them to mirror your training for two weeks, then go hit the hills- I am certain you will see much different results! So- it’s not about the bike! A couple of lbs of bike is going to make very little difference- training bike only, vs swim, bike run makes a huge difference. Save your money, and decide what sport you want to excel at :-)
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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mwanner13 wrote:
Would a light road bike be a better choice than a TT bike at IM Canada with
8,000 feet of climbing? Seems it would be.

SBRLaw wrote:
Is your bike optimal/competitive for steep climbs?

Optimal and competitive are relative terms.

In terms of your tri bike being optimal and competitive in a hilly road race against lightweight climbers on lightweight road bikes, the answer IMO is no, as the relative importance of a lighter bike becomes a more significant factor.
If you are going out for a cruise, it doesn't matter, as the relative importance of a lighter or heavier frame is of less consequence.

However, for a triathlon race, I believe a heavier bike will have a more relative consequence the hillier the course. For example, I am doing Ironman Canada, which has a little under 8,000 feet of climbing on the bike. In this course, a lighter bike would be more optimal/competitive than a course such as Ironman Cozumel (which has approximately 155 feet of total climbing).

Yesterday there was a short TT stage with a heavy climb and descent in the Basque Tour. They nearly all had TTs with a disk rear wheel.
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [FatandSlow] [ In reply to ]
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FatandSlow wrote:
"Hilly" is a matter of perspective.....
Agreed. What one considers normal another will consider ridiculously flat. What one person calls hilly another will consider normal. If I'm looking to do a decent chunk of climbing, I have several looped routes through the hills that string together a few 6-15% climbs of between 2.5-10km. I could easily clock up 1500m (4900ft) in an 80km (50 mile) ride. My most "hilly" was the Marmotte des Alpes whch was about 175km (109miles) containing about 5000m (16,400ft) of climbing. Highly recommended by the way!

FatandSlow wrote:
...I'm in central VA. The Saturday training ride for the road club I used to ride with (and hopefully will again once I drop 20kg) was 52.8 miles with over 2500 feet of climbing. Every Saturday....
They did the exact same ride every week? Yuck! - Not the club for me!
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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mwanner13 wrote:
If I did buy a road bike I’d probably want to keep it $2,500 or less.
In my experience, a road bike is far more joyful on challenging climbs and group stuff. I built a 14 lb. very good road bike on leftover parts I had plus some used stuff found here, craigslist, and ebay. I was deliberate and didn't try to find everything in a day. If you have a $2,500 budget, you can get a very good bike (if you are inclined to build it yourself) that will love you on the hills.

I find it very difficult to climb on my TT bike, and the weight has nothing to do with it. The bike's geometry puts me far forward on the climbs and makes it hard to get the right leverage. I am consistently and significantly slower on my TT bike. My road bike, by contrast, seems to allow me to maximize my power for longer periods of time.
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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You make a good point about being a triathlete and focusing on my sport. On the other hand, do you live in an area with a lot of elevation? I would like to participate in a couple local centuries and make an annual trip to the mountains with friends to ride, but riding 5,000-10,000 feet of elevation on a triathlon bike isn’t practical or efficient.

As well, I have a base training area that is conducive to my triathlon bike. Most other surrounding training areas are better suited to using a light
road bike.

Depending where you live determines the type of bike best suited to handle the terrain.

On the other hand cost is certainly a consideration and a factor here.

IntenseOne wrote:
mwanner13 wrote:
These guys are pure cyclists and not triathletes. They won’t be showing up to a Century, Metric Century or hilly group ride on a triathlon bike. I’m sure I can handle them on rollers and definitely on a flat ride, but on a ride with significant elevation, I’m not hanging on a triathlon bike. I agree that time can be made up, provided you’re not doing one climb after the next.

quote MattyK]
mwanner13 wrote:
5’8.5” 149 lbs and under 10% BF.
So you plus bike is about 170lb. At best you could take maybe 6 lb off the bike (3.5%), and that still leaves you 20lb heavier than your friend.
And that only helps when climbing, and hurts you everywhere else (flats, downhill) if it's at the compromise of aero.

Unless you have a race that starts at the bottom of a hill and ends at the top, don't worry about it. Just ride the heavy bike, use the extra effort to make you stronger, and crush your friends on race day.

I think you are missing the most important factor- you are a triathlete, and presumably don’t just ride, but also train swimming and running.
If you want to be on an even playing field with your roadie buddies, ask them to mirror your training for two weeks, then go hit the hills- I am certain you will see much different results! So- it’s not about the bike! A couple of lbs of bike is going to make very little difference- training bike only, vs swim, bike run makes a huge difference. Save your money, and decide what sport you want to excel at :-)[/quote]
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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I live in a coastal area surrounded by mountains. Most of my 50-60 mile rides include 3000-5000 ft of climbing, and like most triathletes I have many “roadie” friends. I ride regularly with a very strong group, but just do not worry about “competing” with them. I have 2 road bikes, a cycle cross bike, a mountain bike, a BMX and a Tri bike. On most road rides I ride one of my road bikes, or my Tri bike depending on how I feel and what my goal is for the ride. I am about the same speed regardless of which road or Tri bike I use. Occasionally I will do blocks with single sport focus, and I always get better at that sport for the duration of the block, but when I go back to multi sport training, I am not quite as fast as a runner, or swimmer or rider as when I train specifically, but I am a faster triathlete :-)
If I had to get rid of all my bikes except 1- I would keep the cycle cross bike, or buy a new gravel bike :-) And yes, I would have no problem riding it in a Tri :-) The point is, don’t be surprised if you buy that new super light road bike and don’t get much faster :-) Buy it if you can afford it, and you will enjoy it!


mwanner13 wrote:
You make a good point about being a triathlete and focusing on my sport. On the other hand, do you live in an area with a lot of elevation? I would like to participate in a couple local centuries and make an annual trip to the mountains with friends to ride, but riding 5,000-10,000 feet of elevation on a triathlon bike isn’t practical or efficient.

As well, I have a base training area that is conducive to my triathlon bike. Most other surrounding training areas are better suited to using a light
road bike.

Depending where you live determines the type of bike best suited to handle the terrain.

On the other hand cost is certainly a consideration and a factor here.

IntenseOne wrote:
mwanner13 wrote:
These guys are pure cyclists and not triathletes. They won’t be showing up to a Century, Metric Century or hilly group ride on a triathlon bike. I’m sure I can handle them on rollers and definitely on a flat ride, but on a ride with significant elevation, I’m not hanging on a triathlon bike. I agree that time can be made up, provided you’re not doing one climb after the next.

quote MattyK]
mwanner13 wrote:
5’8.5” 149 lbs and under 10% BF.
So you plus bike is about 170lb. At best you could take maybe 6 lb off the bike (3.5%), and that still leaves you 20lb heavier than your friend.
And that only helps when climbing, and hurts you everywhere else (flats, downhill) if it's at the compromise of aero.

Unless you have a race that starts at the bottom of a hill and ends at the top, don't worry about it. Just ride the heavy bike, use the extra effort to make you stronger, and crush your friends on race day.

I think you are missing the most important factor- you are a triathlete, and presumably don’t just ride, but also train swimming and running.
If you want to be on an even playing field with your roadie buddies, ask them to mirror your training for two weeks, then go hit the hills- I am certain you will see much different results! So- it’s not about the bike! A couple of lbs of bike is going to make very little difference- training bike only, vs swim, bike run makes a huge difference. Save your money, and decide what sport you want to excel at :-)
[/quote]
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve kind of taken the approach up until now that I won’t be KOM’ing a bunch of
steep climbs on my triathlon bike and looked at how things tend to level out through a ride on a triathlon bike,
provided you’re not riding in the mountains. I think I could absolutely get by and continue to improve as a triathlete on a tri bike.

Perhaps you’re right that if I have extra funds to put toward a light road bike then go ahead, but if I don’t then just upgrade to a new tri bike at some point. My tri bike is 7 years old, so I’ll probably want to get a new one in the next couple of years.

Carrying a nice new triathlon bike and road bike is a lot of cost. It may not be the best investment at the moment.

IntenseOne wrote:
I live in a coastal area surrounded by mountains. Most of my 50-60 mile rides include 3000-5000 ft of climbing, and like most triathletes I have many “roadie” friends. I ride regularly with a very strong group, but just do not worry about “competing” with them. I have 2 road bikes, a cycle cross bike, a mountain bike, a BMX and a Tri bike. On most road rides I ride one of my road bikes, or my Tri bike depending on how I feel and what my goal is for the ride. I am about the same speed regardless of which road or Tri bike I use. Occasionally I will do blocks with single sport focus, and I always get better at that sport for the duration of the block, but when I go back to multi sport training, I am not quite as fast as a runner, or swimmer or rider as when I train specifically, but I am a faster triathlete :-)
If I had to get rid of all my bikes except 1- I would keep the cycle cross bike, or buy a new gravel bike :-) And yes, I would have no problem riding it in a Tri :-) The point is, don’t be surprised if you buy that new super light road bike and don’t get much faster :-) Buy it if you can afford it, and you will enjoy it!


mwanner13 wrote:
You make a good point about being a triathlete and focusing on my sport. On the other hand, do you live in an area with a lot of elevation? I would like to participate in a couple local centuries and make an annual trip to the mountains with friends to ride, but riding 5,000-10,000 feet of elevation on a triathlon bike isn’t practical or efficient.

As well, I have a base training area that is conducive to my triathlon bike. Most other surrounding training areas are better suited to using a light
road bike.

Depending where you live determines the type of bike best suited to handle the terrain.

On the other hand cost is certainly a consideration and a factor here.

IntenseOne wrote:
mwanner13 wrote:
These guys are pure cyclists and not triathletes. They won’t be showing up to a Century, Metric Century or hilly group ride on a triathlon bike. I’m sure I can handle them on rollers and definitely on a flat ride, but on a ride with significant elevation, I’m not hanging on a triathlon bike. I agree that time can be made up, provided you’re not doing one climb after the next.

quote MattyK]
mwanner13 wrote:
5’8.5” 149 lbs and under 10% BF.
So you plus bike is about 170lb. At best you could take maybe 6 lb off the bike (3.5%), and that still leaves you 20lb heavier than your friend.
And that only helps when climbing, and hurts you everywhere else (flats, downhill) if it's at the compromise of aero.

Unless you have a race that starts at the bottom of a hill and ends at the top, don't worry about it. Just ride the heavy bike, use the extra effort to make you stronger, and crush your friends on race day.

I think you are missing the most important factor- you are a triathlete, and presumably don’t just ride, but also train swimming and running.
If you want to be on an even playing field with your roadie buddies, ask them to mirror your training for two weeks, then go hit the hills- I am certain you will see much different results! So- it’s not about the bike! A couple of lbs of bike is going to make very little difference- training bike only, vs swim, bike run makes a huge difference. Save your money, and decide what sport you want to excel at :-)
[/quote]
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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That was just the Saturday ride, Ai_1. There are different rides on Mondays and Thursdays. Best group I've ever been associated with.
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [FatandSlow] [ In reply to ]
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FatandSlow wrote:
That was just the Saturday ride, Ai_1. There are different rides on Mondays and Thursdays. Best group I've ever been associated with.
I get that but the same ride every Saturday sounds needlessly tedious. I think I value variety more than most!
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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After reading through this thread, here's the impression I'm getting...

Sounds like you are strong like bull on bike. Triathlon has been an avenue for that. But, you really want to race/win anything and everything bike related ;)

Here's a thought... put tri behind cycling on your priority list. One sport focus is fun. Easier to improve in one sport when I can devote 90-100% of my training time to that one sport.

If I have 12 hrs/week to train, giving swim and run 5-7 hours doesn't leave too much for the bike to really grow by leaps and bounds.

Forget lightest tri bike. Find a way to get a good road bike. Then, get on a path that will have you making those buddies chase you to the top.

I'm not saying that tri is done. Do one every now and then when you can afford to devote less time to your cycling passion...early spring or something like that. Then, after that, run a tiny bit, swim just enough to keep the feel, but bike your ass off. No one has assigned you the title of Triathlete. You can still do a bit of 'crosstraining' even though you focus on biking.

Having said all of that...if you want to make progess in the tri world, I liked what IntenseOne said about knowing your limitations with these kind of rides when you are on a tri bike....other than the very pointy end, a solid triathlete won't win any hill climbs or sign sprints or ride away from every group ride chasing them. Once you come to accept that, it's a relief. You can still make them work, but leave the climbing and the sprinting to the bikes and cyclists who are built for it.




"Outwork your talent." Kevin McHale
Last edited by: morpheus: Apr 9, 19 14:02
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [morpheus] [ In reply to ]
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At some point it may come to that. Maybe sooner than later. I love cycling and winning.

morpheus wrote:
After reading through this thread, here's the impression I'm getting...

Sounds like you are strong like bull on bike. Triathlon has been an avenue for that. But, you really want to race/win anything and everything bike related ;)

Here's a thought... put tri behind cycling on your priority list. One sport focus is fun. Easier to improve in one sport when I can devote 90-100% of my training time to that one sport.

If I have 12 hrs/week to train, giving swim and run 5-7 hours doesn't leave too much for the bike to really grow by leaps and bounds.

Forget lightest tri bike. Find a way to get a good road bike. Then, get on a path that will have you making those buddies chase you to the top.

I'm not saying that tri is done. Do one every now and then when you can afford to devote less time to your cycling passion...early spring or something like that. Then, after that, run a tiny bit, swim just enough to keep the feel, but bike your ass off. No one has assigned you the title of Triathlete. You can still do a bit of 'crosstraining' even though you focus on biking.

Having said all of that...if you want to make progess in the tri world, I liked what IntenseOne said about knowing your limitations with these kind of rides when you are on a tri bike....other than the very pointy end, a solid triathlete won't win any hill climbs or sign sprints or ride away from every group ride chasing them. Once you come to accept that, it's a relief. You can still make them work, but leave the climbing and the sprinting to the bikes and cyclists who are built for it.
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Re: Lightest Triathlon Bike in 2019 [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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That's the decision I made a couple of months ago. Just realised that cycling was the sport I enjoyed most and was best at, so should focus on that for a while and see how good I could get. No regrets so far, have seen a significant boost in FTP and power over shorter intervals. Bigger improvement has been in my ability to recover and go again, not sure how much of that is improved fitness and how much is fresher legs from not running 30-40 miles per week, but it's made a big difference in group rides and races.
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