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Boston + St George doubling
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I'm going to run Boston and race St George in the next few weeks. My plan is to train through Boston, running it as a tough workout (maybe 5-10% slower than 'actual' marathon pace), then taper for St George and do my best. Would love to hear some feedback from anyone that's done this before. Any advice is welcome though! Bonus points for predictions, time, DNS/DNF/etc. I'll update with my finish times if there's enough interest.
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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If you run Boston backwards, all of your forwards running muscles should be totally fresh for St. George. Just a thought.

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Re: Boston + St George doubling [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Logic is flawless, I need to practice picking up gatorade running backwards though. Hmm...
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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In 2017 I did Boston and the Santa Rosa half which in that year was happening in mid-May - so I had 3 weeks and 6 days to recover, complicated by having to go to New York on my way to California for some business. You will have 2 weeks and 5 days, so sort of close. I was 44 at the time just for the reference. One thing I had to sacrifice was my pool time prior to Boston - I think that I swam maybe 20k yards total in the 3 months leading to it.

Did not run Boston particularly well (3:16) and was pretty trashed at the finish line. I took the rest of the week after Boston almost completely off from cycling/running and did about 11 hours of training in the following 2 weeks with the emphasis on swimming and cycling. I showed up at the lake feeling pretty fit, but I gotta tell you that the last 20 miles of the bike in Santa Rosa were not fun - I had realized by then that I was way undertrained, and the residual fatigue was hitting me hard. On the flip side, I ran a low 1:29 off the bike on a course with like 30 turns - and that felt easy. I think that I had the 3rd fastest time in the AG.

So - if you are good with recovering quickly, you can do it. I would not expect an earth shattering time in St George which is a much harder course than Santa Rosa. I think that the end result is largely dependent on how good of a swimmer you are. If your strength is running as opposed to swimming/biking - reduce your target watts by a lot.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
Last edited by: alex_korr: Apr 3, 19 13:25
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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If you are not "racing" Boston, then why would you run it hard enough (tough workout) to where you're worried about it affecting your performance at St George? Does a sorta ok time at Boston mean anything to you? Just run it super easy and set yourself up to do well at St George.

(unless you're m35-39, then run your heart out in boston ;)
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the input. My swimming is definitely my weakest point but I've had a consistent block this buildup so it's not in a bad place right now. I expect to be able to continue swimming as normal with the exception of Saturday-Wednesday over Boston - I typically swim during the week anyway so I may get away with just shuffling and still getting the same amount of pool time in.

Did you feel you were undertrained on the bike as well as the swim? My bike is actually the strongest it's ever been despite only picking it back up consistently in January. I'm not terribly worried about it but I will definitely dial down the power goal a little bit based on your input.

I am pretty quick to recover generally so I'm optimistic to have a decent experience at both races. Fortunately I have a good number of buddies supporting/racing at both so either way it will be a good experience. My run is my strongest discipline and in a great place right now since I focused almost entirely on running last year.
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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My main reason for running Boston at more than a plodding effort is I want to requalify and try to get a decent corral for next year in the event I am in a position to "race" it next year instead of participate.
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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Gotcha. What are your goals for St George?
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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A good swim for me will probably be in the ~35 minute area. I'm pretty confident I can put that down based on my pool times lately but it's probably been a year since i've had my wetsuit on / done an OWS. Bike, it's still a little early for me to tell exactly where my fitness is (still have a couple key indicator workouts I want to run), but I would be happy going under 2:25 on a good weather/execution day with sub 2:20 being my ambitious goal. With good execution I think i can run around 1:23 and a great execution/weather day should see that number closer to 1:20. I have in my notes 4:30-5:00 for total transition time but I can't remember where exactly I came up with those numbers so that may be off base (generally one of the faster guys in transition).
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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Def thought that the bike was in a good place although the longest ride prior to Boston was maybe 40 miles or so. But it turned out that it was incorrect and towards the end of the bike I was getting passed by everyone and their mom.

Keep in mind that St George has a very hilly run - so if you really can put down a 1:23 during the run then, assuming that you're swimming even only good-ish, you should be in the running for the podium in most age groups. The bike does have a fair amount of climbing, but it is comparable to Santa Rosa, plus you get to spin your legs out on the way to T2... whilst in Santa Rosa I had to hammer the last 10 miles into the wind on the flats which was not ideal. So I think that St George offers a comparable bike course, but a way harder run course - which should be playing into your strengths.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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ryla wrote:
A good swim for me will probably be in the ~35 minute area. I'm pretty confident I can put that down based on my pool times lately but it's probably been a year since i've had my wetsuit on / done an OWS. Bike, it's still a little early for me to tell exactly where my fitness is (still have a couple key indicator workouts I want to run), but I would be happy going under 2:25 on a good weather/execution day with sub 2:20 being my ambitious goal. With good execution I think i can run around 1:23 and a great execution/weather day should see that number closer to 1:20. I have in my notes 4:30-5:00 for total transition time but I can't remember where exactly I came up with those numbers so that may be off base (generally one of the faster guys in transition).

if those are your goals and they are realistic i'd really just trot boston and run a marathon later in the spring/summer to requalify, because you will be podium-ing in your AG at st. george.
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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Really appreciate the input. I've got some solid bike workouts with plenty of climbing, at least one over 60 miles so I have some confidence there. I'm a 30-34 so I'm definitely not going to have an easy time finding a podium but we'll see what happens. I'm on the lighter side so a hilly course definitely plays to my strengths.
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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No worries. Feel free to PM me or something - I'm chomping at the bit to race this bad boy soon!

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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Did this combo two years in a row. As well as Boston + IM SR (‘18).

I prioritized tri’s every time, but trained specifically for marathon in the lead up in terms of run workouts and skipping bike in favor of running. Mediocre at marathoning, and I think Boston training was the best thing that ever happened to my tri running.

Good luck!
Last edited by: friskyDingo: Apr 3, 19 17:28
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [friskyDingo] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome! Gives me some comfort to see a few other folks follow through with the same bad ideas I have. I definitely agree that marathon training is great for tri fitness, I mostly focused on running last year and I feel much stronger on the bike this year than I did in 17.
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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Just thought I'd post a little update for folks interested in my experiment. Weather was a little warm toward the end today but it was basically as perfect as the conditions can get for Boston. I found myself running a little faster than i planned for the first few miles but it felt pretty easy and my heart rate was under control. I occasionally ran with mouth closed focusing on easy breathing through the nose to make sure my effort was really in check. At wellesley I did manage to check the box and kiss one of the girls, but unfortunately the momentum change caused a stumble which almost killed me. Heart rate spiked to roughly 5k effort while I recovered and high fived the rest of the girls. Kept on top of nutrition and maintained an easy effort. Unfortunately my tracking was busted from the start so my friends, family and coworkers weren't able to keep tabs on me throughout the day. I finished around 2:40 though which should secure me corral/wave 1/1 for next year if I decide to race again I'm also pretty happy to see my heart rate/etc data confirm that my fitness is probably better than it's ever been. St George should be exciting. Great job to everyone that ran today, hope you had a successful day too. Here's a pic a friend snapped at 25, I'm doing my best to acknowledge him with a thumbs up.

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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing I plan on doing something similar later this season and i'm interested how St. George goes for you.
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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Do we get an IMSG recap?

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, sure didn't!


I'm in the process of packing up, cleaning, and fixing up my house to put on the market. I'm moving across the country in a few weeks and haven't had much free time for slowtwitch, nor my other hobbies. I wasn't especially happy with my result at St George either, that diminished my ambition to write a recap. Might as well knock it out now though! I'll start back in Boston to give some context for St George.


The day before the Marathon I woke up with some mild cold symptoms. I figured it was either allergies or a side effect of being more social than normal. I went to Boston with a couple friends that went to college in the area so we met up with their friends and family for drinks, dinner, etc. The morning of the race the symptoms were still there, but again fairly mild so I didn't think much of it. I don't feel like it impacted my race in Boston but it's one of those things that you can never really put a finger on. I ran pretty well for a conservative marathon effort and was really happy with running 2:40ish there. I had to submit a request to get my timing reevaluated since they never registered me crossing the starting line. Just a few days ago I finally go a response saying my time was confirmed. I think they just took my word from what I recorded from my watch.


The day after the Marathon I flew to Denver for work. I do not live in Denver. I managed to hit the treadmill in the evening and jog out three really slow miles without too much trouble. Wednesday was about the same, but four miles. Thursday I flew home and spent an hour on the trainer, not feeling too bad. Friday the cold symptoms were still lingering but still mild so I just figured it really was allergies. I did a race sime brick (35' swim 35' bike 10k run) and felt pretty strong for being so close to Boston. Saturday was a big bike with a buddy who also raced St George. The cold was real now. I was coughing most of the ride and my heart rate was considerably higher than i though it should be. At this point the cold launched into full attack mode. Took three days off - the third of which including flying to LA for work. I ran any easy couple miles the day after - the cold was still strong so the run was anything but easy. Flew back home the day after. Saturday an open water swim in ~55 water rekindled the dwindling cough so I swam for 15 minutes while my buddies swam for 45.


A week out from the race I decided to just take everything real easy and try to get over the cold. Thursday I drove up with a buddy and we did a little shakeout ride (nine hours or so in the car). Legs felt really good. Pushing 300 watts for a minute here and there felt like no problem. Good deal. Friday we do the expo stuff. I spotted Holly Lawrence walking toward me in the village, she smiled at me as we crossed paths, and this was the highlight of the weekend for me. Buddy and I head out for a brick, same story with the bike as the previous day. We ran up and down Diagonal (basically the whole section of Diagonal on the race) averaged 6:09 for 2.4 miles - effort definitely below 70.3 pace, a big confidence boost. Friday we swam after dropping the bikes off, water felt warm compared to the previous weekend's ordeal, no coughing either.


A friend started a new club in the area I'm from and invited me to be a part of it. I told him since I was moving in June that I would have to decline. He was really eager to get me to race in his kit anyway and said he brought some extras. Although they're only women's sizes he convinces me that they're "the same," and that one of the other guys actually wears a women's large. I tried on a women's medium and it seemed to fit pretty well. The kit is made of very nice material. I laugh in the face of "nothing new on race day" (foolishly). I take the kit to my room and will wear it to race in.


Prerace was pretty smooth. Woke up without an issue, got to transition with plenty of time. No issues with equipment or logistics. Zero'd my power meter after connecting bike computer. Life's good. Get in line for the swim and actually see some family members that have driven up but weren't at the venue by the time I dumped my phone. Hopped out of the rolling start line and chatted with them for a couple minutes. Got back in line and fell into a rhythm for the swim.


Unfortunately it wasn't a very good rhythm. I swam wide, kept sighting and seeing that I was wide, but never really made an effort to correct it. Not sure why my brain just farted on that action. Oh well. Started to taste diesel and sense some chop. Oh good, the boats are out. At one point I hit a small wave at the crest and someone swam underneath me. My chest hit his back without any other bodily contact. Weird. Swam on. I ended up swimming something right around 37:00, which I was a little dissapointed with my swimming had been really minimal the past month between work travel and illness. Up the boat ramp.


I caught my toe on a bubble in the carpet running up to transition. A little annoying but I didn't fall face first so that was fine. My number was 2820 so my gear bag was very easy to find at the back corner. Got my stuff swapped and stuffed and was on my way. My number being so high also made my bike very easy to find. I was planning on doing a flying mount but was told that was a no go for the AG crowd. I carried my shoes through transition, stopped just before the timing mat and strapped them on. That long run on asphalt was not kind to my bare feet.


My slow swim made the start of the bike congested. I'm moving up the field but I'm having a hard time holding power resembling anything close to what I trained at. My heart rate is dipping well below normal 70.3 intensity too. I don't think much of it because I am passing quite a few people and that much is enjoyable. I do end up back and forth with a few guys but for the most part I'm making decent time despite my power. I think at this point I started to tilt toward some race apathy. As I mentioned before I'm in the process of moving so post race is a long, deliberate, unavoidable break from training. I'm frustrated that I can't hold "aero" power even when I'm upright. Bombing down that decent for the last ten miles is a great experience though. I slide my feet out of my shoes as I break off diagonal and get ready for T2. Somewhere around 2:25 for the bike, not bad but not what I hoped for.


Smooth dismount into a long run to my rack. Easy to find again, but again I'm running forever with my bike. Am I the only one wondering where all of the transition carpet is? Didn't they used to lay that stuff down everywhere. Minus some pouting about running barefoot on asphalt transition goes well and I'm hoping I can throw something down for the run to be satisfied with.


Start running uphill and hear the wives of a couple friends competing. I asked "how are the boys doing" and they responded with well. Happy to hear that at least. I feel defeated already and my feet are hurting which is weird for me since I'm more of a pure runner. Last summer I averaged over 100 miles per week for a couple months. Feet should not hurt. Suck it up. After about three or four miles into the run I decided to unzip the kit. I usually stay fully zipped regardless of how hot a race is but decide this one is kind of tanked anyway, screw it. Unzipping was a huge relief. Apparently a woman's ribcage is more narrow than a man's and this thing had been constricting my breathing a bit. oops. Possibly all in my head but still something I'm considering as I'm running. Finally get to one of the little downhills and my toe kind of hurts in a weird way that's not typical. Oh well, go on. I ended up kind of jogging in the end of the race not feeling great, like I could go harder but it would cause a hurt that wasn't going to be worth the result. Ran about 1:28 which I accepted since I just tailed off on my effort entirely. My average heart rate for the run was lower than pretty much any long training run I would do in the range of 20-24 miles long. That's fine. It was a great weekend with friends and my buddies all had amazing races.


Hang out at the finish line and enjoy all of that. Head back to the hotel to shower. Well look at that, the stubbed toe is significantly swollen and I appear to have burst a blood vessel. That may be the source of that pain. Oh and the icing on the cake - those mild cold symptoms persisted for another couple days after St George!


TLDR: Did not come anywhere closed to my goals but still had fun. Probably got sick and fell flat a bit training through Boston so close to St George, coupled with two work trips between the two races, that didn't help. Swimming a lazy line, stubbing my toe, wearing a very tight kit, running on bare asphalt certainly didn't help my day. Thanks for reading.


Here's my toe post shower:


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Re: Boston + St George doubling [ryla] [ In reply to ]
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I dont believe you can qualify for Boston, at Boston (just in case that changes your strategy).

Last year I did Boston and then the full IM at Lanzarote in mid-May (which by all accounts could be similar to St George). I used Boston as a long run and just enjoyed the experience. If you remove the worry of requalifying from the equation it is an excellent plan. I would do it again (though hopefully under warmer conditions).
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Re: Boston + St George doubling [Kate S] [ In reply to ]
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Boston actually lists Boston as one of the top qualifying marathons.
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