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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
a flailing, loping conner mantz becomes a tight, refined conner mantz not by getting fitter (he was already fit as a HS soph) but by observation and immersion into a cauldron of runners who're better than he is.
..
swim strokes are, to the eye, quite variable, but most share common best practice elements.

Conner also grew older, stronger, and did lots more running plus numbers of workouts that he hadn't done in HS. It would be difficult to separate the effects..

Your 440yd repeat story does bring up an interesting point - it seems to me there is room for technique coaching in sprinting. Though this is just idle speculation and I haven't studied it in any detail. A brief jaunt into the research - it also says speed is optimized at self-selected stride frequency..
Distance running however is about optimizing efficiency and economy, nothing does this better than running. The study linked concludes, "trained runners chose a stride frequency closer to the optimum for energy expenditure than novices. "
Were they coached into selecting optimal stride length ? probably not..

Entirely agree about the swim strokes - except that the variability is mostly when watching from the deck. Underwater video tends to show that fast swimmers' strokes are more the same than they are different..
And here we are talking about a learned and not well understood adaptation to hydrodynamics. No-one knows how to swim, they have to be taught, based on a selection of randomly evolved strokes (how did we end up with the crawl, anyway ?). Then hydrodynamics sets the rules and we have to obey.
But the first thing everyone does after learning to walk, is run..

Generally I'm all in favour of study and optimization via practice, have done this all my life in the learned sports like flycasting, canoeing, etc. But distance running isn't a learned sport..
Now it seems to me I'm making a sort of Paleo Diet evolutionary Just-So-story argument for run training, which heaven forfend. I'll have to come up with a way out ;-)
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
jstonebarger wrote:
Honest question: do experienced runners tend to use a higher cadence than less experienced runners? (I've always assumed they do, as cyclists tend to, and that's my background.)

Yes, they do. For the same reasons cyclists do. They're faster.

Ulrich vs LA says otherwise
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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sch340 wrote:
Sorry to interrupt this discussion on cadence, stride length and form vs "efficiency", but I was wondering if there is acknowledged evidence that some particular form (more than others) results in reduced chance of injury?

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I am trying to heel strike less because I've broken a bunch of bones and had some other minor injuries over the past 5 years, all from running.

To be honest I would give up a few % of efficiency to keep me running all year round without any interruptions.

I know there are other things (strengthening, rolling, etc) that can help prevent injury but I am talking about isolating form as an independent variable for injury prevention.

i don't know and i don't even know how to construct a study that would yield relevance. but i do know of a longitudinal study that's lasted 50 years. me. and my HS running buddies. we have a group, about 300 of us, we get together every year. we all ran with and against each other in high school, from the late 60s to thru the mid 70s. who among us still can run? and, how do we manage that?

one thing i have to say that's good about the barefoot (and associated) movements: what you certainly canNOT do is be a heel striking overstriding loper and hope to prevail. if we could just incorporate the most helpful takeaways from minimalism into a world that includes this wondrous new gadget - the shoe - we would probably benefit.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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No it doesn’t.
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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doug in co wrote:
Slowman wrote:
a flailing, loping conner mantz becomes a tight, refined conner mantz not by getting fitter (he was already fit as a HS soph) but by observation and immersion into a cauldron of runners who're better than he is.
..
swim strokes are, to the eye, quite variable, but most share common best practice elements.


Conner also grew older, stronger, and did lots more running plus numbers of workouts that he hadn't done in HS. It would be difficult to separate the effects..

Your 440yd repeat story does bring up an interesting point - it seems to me there is room for technique coaching in sprinting. Though this is just idle speculation and I haven't studied it in any detail. A brief jaunt into the research - it also says speed is optimized at self-selected stride frequency..
Distance running however is about optimizing efficiency and economy, nothing does this better than running. The study linked concludes, "trained runners chose a stride frequency closer to the optimum for energy expenditure than novices. "
Were they coached into selecting optimal stride length ? probably not..

Entirely agree about the swim strokes - except that the variability is mostly when watching from the deck. Underwater video tends to show that fast swimmers' strokes are more the same than they are different..
And here we are talking about a learned and not well understood adaptation to hydrodynamics. No-one knows how to swim, they have to be taught, based on a selection of randomly evolved strokes (how did we end up with the crawl, anyway ?). Then hydrodynamics sets the rules and we have to obey.
But the first thing everyone does after learning to walk, is run..

Generally I'm all in favour of study and optimization via practice, have done this all my life in the learned sports like flycasting, canoeing, etc. But distance running isn't a learned sport..
Now it seems to me I'm making a sort of Paleo Diet evolutionary Just-So-story argument for run training, which heaven forfend. I'll have to come up with a way out ;-)

i don't think there's a lot of space between us. swimming is exactly analogous to running in this sense: there's a ton of variability in what doesn't matter. there's very close conformity in what does matter.

one thing that doesn't matter is stride length. it's not of direct interest to distance coaches. it's not one of the things that does matter. so, measuring stride length, and demonstrating that coaching form is useless, is like measuring distance per stroke in the pool, among both novices and elites, and concluding that coaching swim form is useless.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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sch340 wrote:
wondering if there is acknowledged evidence that some particular form (more than others) results in reduced chance of injury?


unfortunately not. As per my first post, as a matter of physics, you can move forces around but can't get rid of them. Changing form to fore-foot strike will typically change the location of injuries from the knee to calf and achilles. So if you'd like to try some fresh injury types, changing form is the way to do it ;-)

https://www.outsideonline.com/...g-biomechanics-study
"we’re wired to automatically adjust our biomechanics to keep the overall loading rate roughly the same."

But there's no evidence for injury reduction through form alterations.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29791183
"contrary to several long-held beliefs, flexibility, arch height, quadriceps angle, rearfoot motion, lower extremity strength, weekly mileage, footwear, and previous injury are not significant etiologic factors across all overuse running injuries."

The caveat is that for specific injuries there are things that might make sense - see

https://www.outsideonline.com/...-your-running-stride

though in all cases the injury is usually best addressed through specific strength exercises. See your physical therapist..

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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i don't think there's a lot of space between us. swimming is exactly analogous to running in this sense: there's a ton of variability in what doesn't matter. there's very close conformity in what does matter.

one thing that doesn't matter is stride length. it's not of direct interest to distance coaches. it's not one of the things that does matter. so, measuring stride length, and demonstrating that coaching form is useless, is like measuring distance per stroke in the pool, among both novices and elites, and concluding that coaching swim form is useless.

but what does matter, in running form ?
in swimming hydrodynamics requires certain body positions and stroke form. There's nothing analogous in running.
No-one (cf Daniels experiment) can identify good running form.
There is no evidence to show alterations in running form produces either faster runners or fewer injuries (with caveats as per my injury post above). If there is I'd like to see it..
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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perhaps run form is destroyed in long endurance events. look at the advice of sutton.... ironman run is a walk a thon

https://team.homeoftriathlon.ch/...er-ironman-run-split
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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And this.....

https://www.outsideonline.com/...-worlds-best-runners

"Of the 70 runners analyzed during the fourth lap of the men’s marathon, 47 of them (67 percent) landed on their heels, 21 (30 percent) landed on their midfoot, and two (3 percent) landed on their forefoot. The percentages were similar in the 78 competitors analyzed in the women’s marathon: 57 (73 percent) heel, 19 (24 percent) midfoot, and 2 (3 percent) forefoot. And this pattern wasn’t confined to particular countries or finishing places. In the men’s marathon, the top four finishers, hailing from Kenya, Ethiopia, Tanzania, and Great Britain, were all heel strikers during all four laps of the race.
This is particularly interesting because the idea that elite runners don’t land on their heels is so pervasive. When Nike was developing shoe concepts for its sub-two-hour marathon project, they at one point produced a prototype with the heel mostly stripped off to save weight. The problem was that virtually all the elite runners who tried it hated it, so they ended up pivoting to the chunky, cushioned heel in the new Vaporfly 4% shoe."

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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doug in co wrote:
Slowman wrote:

i don't think there's a lot of space between us. swimming is exactly analogous to running in this sense: there's a ton of variability in what doesn't matter. there's very close conformity in what does matter.

one thing that doesn't matter is stride length. it's not of direct interest to distance coaches. it's not one of the things that does matter. so, measuring stride length, and demonstrating that coaching form is useless, is like measuring distance per stroke in the pool, among both novices and elites, and concluding that coaching swim form is useless.


but what does matter, in running form? in swimming hydrodynamics requires certain body positions and stroke form. There's nothing analogous in running. No-one (cf Daniels experiment) can identify good running form. There is no evidence to show alterations in running form produces either faster runners or fewer injuries (with caveats as per my injury post above). If there is I'd like to see it.

can you tell me the major themes of the book of hezekiah? no? if not, there could be two reasons. one: you're as fit an arbiter of the old testament as jack daniels' academics are of run form. two: there is no book of hezekiah!

you asked me what the tenets of good run form are. and then you write, adamantly, that there's no such thing as good run form. you've learned everything there is possible to learn about running. you don't need an guidance from me.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
you asked me what the tenets of good run form are. and then you write, adamantly, that there's no such thing as good run form. you've learned everything there is possible to learn about running. you don't need an guidance from me.

sorry, I am not making myself clear.
1. For every example of what is described as 'good run form', there are multiple fast experienced runners who do not display the attributes of that 'good form'.
2. Those that can see 'good form' cannot teach it - at least in my rising fifty years of following running and coaches and exercise physiologists, I've not yet seen a case where form adjustment alone led to better performance.
3. 'good form' considered harmful - as per points 1 and 2, forcing changes to run form is not likely to help and may produce injuries and slower performances.
Point 3 is the one that matters, and the only reason I get into these arguments.. I know I can't win, but at least some bystanders might get some food for thought.

Peace out..
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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doug in co wrote:
Slowman wrote:

you asked me what the tenets of good run form are. and then you write, adamantly, that there's no such thing as good run form. you've learned everything there is possible to learn about running. you don't need an guidance from me.


sorry, I am not making myself clear.
1. For every example of what is described as 'good run form', there are multiple fast experienced runners who do not display the attributes of that 'good form'.
2. Those that can see 'good form' cannot teach it - at least in my rising fifty years of following running and coaches and exercise physiologists, I've not yet seen a case where form adjustment alone led to better performance.
3. 'good form' considered harmful - as per points 1 and 2, forcing changes to run form is not likely to help and may produce injuries and slower performances.
Point 3 is the one that matters, and the only reason I get into these arguments.. I know I can't win, but at least some bystanders might get some food for thought. Peace out..

acknowledging i'm asking you to describe something you don't think exists - you don't think there is such a thing as "good run form" - when you talk about "what is described as 'good run form'", what are those elements? so that i know we're both talking about the same elements.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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ggeiger wrote:
And this.....

https://www.outsideonline.com/...-worlds-best-runners

"Of the 70 runners analyzed during the fourth lap of the men’s marathon, 47 of them (67 percent) landed on their heels, 21 (30 percent) landed on their midfoot, and two (3 percent) landed on their forefoot. The percentages were similar in the 78 competitors analyzed in the women’s marathon: 57 (73 percent) heel, 19 (24 percent) midfoot, and 2 (3 percent) forefoot. And this pattern wasn’t confined to particular countries or finishing places. In the men’s marathon, the top four finishers, hailing from Kenya, Ethiopia, Tanzania, and Great Britain, were all heel strikers during all four laps of the race.
This is particularly interesting because the idea that elite runners don’t land on their heels is so pervasive. When Nike was developing shoe concepts for its sub-two-hour marathon project, they at one point produced a prototype with the heel mostly stripped off to save weight. The problem was that virtually all the elite runners who tried it hated it, so they ended up pivoting to the chunky, cushioned heel in the new Vaporfly 4% shoe."

Glad someone put this stuff out again, thanks!

Even though this has been documented many times there seems to be a continued call by the no to low drop fanboys & girls to change your run form.

Most people would be better off running more & thinking less.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
ggeiger wrote:
And this.....

https://www.outsideonline.com/...-worlds-best-runners

"Of the 70 runners analyzed during the fourth lap of the men’s marathon, 47 of them (67 percent) landed on their heels, 21 (30 percent) landed on their midfoot, and two (3 percent) landed on their forefoot. The percentages were similar in the 78 competitors analyzed in the women’s marathon: 57 (73 percent) heel, 19 (24 percent) midfoot, and 2 (3 percent) forefoot. And this pattern wasn’t confined to particular countries or finishing places. In the men’s marathon, the top four finishers, hailing from Kenya, Ethiopia, Tanzania, and Great Britain, were all heel strikers during all four laps of the race.
This is particularly interesting because the idea that elite runners don’t land on their heels is so pervasive. When Nike was developing shoe concepts for its sub-two-hour marathon project, they at one point produced a prototype with the heel mostly stripped off to save weight. The problem was that virtually all the elite runners who tried it hated it, so they ended up pivoting to the chunky, cushioned heel in the new Vaporfly 4% shoe."


Glad someone put this stuff out again, thanks!

Even though this has been documented many times there seems to be a continued call by the no to low drop fanboys & girls to change your run form.

Most people would be better off running more & thinking less.

Myself included at times. Thanks Brian.
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Re: Running Form - Drills To Help Foot Land Under The Body vs Out Front [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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but why do we slow and have terrible run form as we age?

good thread on LR:

https://www.letsrun.com/...d.php?thread=9313780

it is definitely the long distance ruining people.. fatigued running programming an efficient form , for long distance, costing the short speed big time
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