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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
Suggestions to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit?

Don't wear a wetsuit, learn to actually swim, and suck up the water temperature.

Note: Only partially in pink

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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You find it hard because you are over reaching the others are not.

If you keep reaching your arm it will eventually pull back but that is a message that you overreach not the suit doesn't fit.

That said what you should practice in fins at a moderate effort so you practice not overreaching but recovering faster. That is wet suit prep.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
I think the best thing it to wear it in the pool - not all the time but perhaps once a week.
---

I can't imagine wearing my wetsuit in the pool. The water temps are typically kept at way above wetsuit legal limits. I get overheated without it. Wearing the wetty in the pool is a glutton for heat exhaustion punishment of which I've no interest in creating. For me, it's either find an outdoor source with which to practice or go in without that training.

I've worn my wetsuit in a too-hot pool that is so hot that it's actually limiting for me when I go hard. \


It's actually not bad, although you do have to keep your expectations in check, meaning don't do crushingly hard efforts in the suit. Even long, slower paced continuous swimming seems to work fine for acclimation to the wetsuit for race day, and you won't overheat doing these easy-paced efforts.

I would def recommend doing 1 or 2 easy pool swims with the wetsuit even with hot pool temps if you're at all worried about comfort or just want to be more confident with the suit on race day since you otherwise never wear it.
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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some real gems on here. Come summer, I will be wearing a wetsuit in a lake 1-2 times a week. But, this OP was more a thought experiment - how to solve this problem without doing the obvious act of just wearing a wetsuit - a tough mental exercise, apparently.

I'd be curious if posters with comments such as, 'swim more; learn to swim', if they were in a pool and actively getting lapped while the OP, hypothetically, were lapping them on 200y intervals, if the OP were to ask this question, what their responses would be.... just another mental exercise.... and a mental constraint wishfully placed on all future responses.

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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
“You people”

So, give me the benefit of the doubt. 25 years in the sport. Have sold over a thousand of wetsuits and taught people how to put them on. Solid swim background. Have done hundreds of tris and won my fair share.

There’s absolutely zero chance that you can drape neoprene over your shoulders and for there to be absolutely zero additionally resistance. Zero percent chance. Zero. One more time for extra dense: zero.

So, anyone on the critically thinking, problem solving end of the spectrum want to chime in? Is it a serious problem? No. Could being just a tad more prepared for racing in a wetsuit make a difference? I think so and plenty of pros who train once in a while in a suit and say it’s for shoulder adaption. Is it something fun to discus in a Sunday? For me.

well I don't agree.

But I will be a dick here, if all the above is true, why you asking on the board here, with your resume you know more than 99% of the people here. If you have thousands of wetsuits and you believe this, then you are a lousy salesmen to never address with thousands of coustemers
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Had a hard time interpreting your broken English, so couldn’t tell if you’re a dick, but will give you the benefit of the doubt

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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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In early season races, I've had several athletes wearing a wetsuit for at min the 500yd warm up in the pool we swim ~84ish* (run of mill YMCA pool that's "warm" for the old people), and no one ever "overheats". It's also a sneaky good practice of getting accustomed to taking it off quickly.

Of course I make the caveat, if your feeling hot, take the damn thing off, as the whole goal is simply to get familiar with it for the season. We aren't trying to bust out 2k repeats in it. Get it on, get the feel of the water with it and then take it off. If that is only 300yds in, then take it off, if it's longer distance, your getting more comfortable and practice with it on.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
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http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe a short sleeved, midriff wetsuit top? Take an old T1 top and cut the sleeve and torso, leaving just enough rubber around the shoulder to provide resistance without covering so much as to cause over heating? Not sure I'd be willing to wear one to the pool, though.

I also like the idea of light resistance bands and doing dry land, straight arm recovery practice. I'm sure it wouldn't be quite the same, though.
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I love it.

I made the comment earlier in this thread about doing such an idea: a half short that comes above the nipples... don’t think anyone took the time to visualize that ridiculousness. Pure gold, in my biased opinion

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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I mentioned the folksinger idea maybe 9-10 years ago on this forum: a wetsuit with separate arms and torso connected by material, kind of like a Seinfeld puffy shoulder shirt... half serious...

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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
“You people”

So, give me the benefit of the doubt. 25 years in the sport. Have sold over a thousand of wetsuits and taught people how to put them on. Solid swim background. Have done hundreds of tris and won my fair share.

There’s absolutely zero chance that you can drape neoprene over your shoulders and for there to be absolutely zero additionally resistance. Zero percent chance. Zero. One more time for extra dense: zero.

So, anyone on the critically thinking, problem solving end of the spectrum want to chime in? Is it a serious problem? No. Could being just a tad more prepared for racing in a wetsuit make a difference? I think so and plenty of pros who train once in a while in a suit and say it’s for shoulder adaption. Is it something fun to discus in a Sunday? For me.

Similar boat to you, in & around the sport approx 25 years, sold & fitted 1500-2000 wetsuits over a 15 year period during that time, but have never had an issue with just putting on a wetsuit and swimming - except if I didn't pull it up flush under the jewells.
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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one possibility: you're just a rippling beast of man.

I mean, I think about bike shorts constricting my thighs. That's just not going to happen because the resistance of the shorts vs the sheer power of my girthy man-meat thighs doesn't stand a chance.

Now, my shoulders on the other hand.... running and cycling have winnowed them pale into comparison to their former selves. I mean, seriously talking 25lbs lighter now compared to my pure swimming self 20 years ago, and that was primarily upper body mass; mostly a big, girthy, vein popping neck, but I digress at the risk of inducing excitement and distracting you from my message, ...

which is that your shoulder mass vs the inevitable resistance of even the most bestest fitting wetsuit jacked far up your manly ass, splitting your boys to the point of them developing separation anxiety, that mass/resistance ratio being such that you're never going to notice the suit resting on your juicy, bulging, greasy shoulders.

I mean, I see all the shit swimmers in the pool with Sanders-esque swim technique and from your posts, I think can accurately place you all in that category and realize that when you're Ike and the water is Tina, you aren't going to feel the neighbor bursting in and punching you and yelling at you to stop, so you sure as shit aren't going to feel a 1mm wetsuit on those porkchops you call shoulders, right?

case closed. nailed yours and my perception discrepancy.

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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I am. Said I was.
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Nick,

You are getting nailed on your most recent post, but that is the nature of this forum. Truthfully, if you have not tried a T1 Wetsuit, you do not really know how much freedom our two-piece design offers. Get in touch with me if you are interested in learning how different life can be. Heck look at what Slowman wears and he can probably get any wetsuit he wants.

https://www.desotosport.com/collections/first-wave



Emilio De Soto II
Celebrating 30 years of making you cool in more ways that one.
emilio@desotosport.com http://www.desotosport.com
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [Emilio] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Emilio! I’ll reach out

Now, I wouldn’t say I’m getting nailed. I would say, like usual, there are non critically thinking keyboard heroes tossing out their “expert” opinions but I’ve gotten a couple of good replies and the rest.... well, they truly are why so many folks steer wide of these forums, and why a number of us take our more interesting ideas to private chat groups vs these forums. I think ST is losing out on some truly novel thinking, but ST commentators in large are no better then the commenters on Bikerumor, Pinkbike, etc, commenting not for the sake of adding to a discussion, but rather seeking a chuckle through cheap pessimism. It sucks when I’ve seen truly great contributors come and go due to the volume of crap-comments.

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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I guess the problem I'm having, is understanding what the wetsuit does to your shoulders. Many of us have never had any shoulder problems in wetsuits..
Can you describe the restriction and localize the fatigue that the wetsuit causes ?

There are an astonishing number of small muscles around the shoulders and training these requires very specific and targeted exercises. The muscles fatigue quickly and it's easy to compensate with other muscles, which then defeats the purpose of the training.
If unsure, just do all the rotator cuff and scapular stabilization exercises, which will be quite a lot of additional time in training. I'm not sure that it will be worth it in terms of performance time gained. I only do the exercises because of shoulder impingement problems..
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! Yes, we discussed before how these exercises could remedy it. I never said it was a major problem, but there is a tad more resistance during the recovery portion of the stroke vs no wetsuit, and that can add up. Training for that while not training in a wetsuit was the point of the thread.

I’m going to bet that if I had a sample of 30 swimmers with perfectly fitting wetsuits swim 2 miles no wetsuit and then a week later swim 2 miles with a wetsuit, and after each swim, test the time to fatigue of their shoulder and scapula muscles, the time would significantly reduce after the wetsuit swim. It's that simple, and unless you can refute that hypothesis, I just don't buy the claims on here that indicate that there would be no difference.

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Last edited by: milesthedog: Apr 2, 19 8:42
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I have the same issue. I like the resistance band idea...
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
I’m going to bet that if I had a sample of 30 swimmers with perfectly fitting wetsuits swim 2 miles no wetsuit and then a week later swim 2 miles with a wetsuit, and after each swim, test the time to fatigue of their shoulder and scapula muscles, the time would significantly reduce after the wetsuit swim. It's that simple, and unless you can refute that hypothesis, I just don't buy the claims on here that indicate that there would be no difference.

I and many others disagree. Since you're the one making extraordinary claims, I think you need to provide the evidence ;-)
I'll volunteer to be a test subject..

In any case my goal is fast times. A little more fatigue in those muscles is extremely unlikely to affect bike/run times, and I know I'm significantly faster in a wetsuit than without. The marginal gain in swim speed from training those minor muscles, even if measurable at all, is surely not going to be an efficient use of my training time.
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Favorite shoulder strengthening set, added to a WU or long aerobic day

4x100 as:
25 front skull
25 doggy paddle
25 Tarzan drill
25 swim strong

Finish each 100 with deck ups.

Puts enough “unnatural “ swim movement to fatigue the normally used shoulder muscles
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
I never said it was a major problem, but there is a tad more resistance during the recovery portion of the stroke vs no wetsuit, and that can add up. Training for that while not training in a wetsuit was the point of the thread.
Can you tie some ropes (maybe 2m long) to your wrists and drag them through the water? Would add resistance on the recovery and no resistance on the stroke.
As long as the other people in the lane don't grab them for a laugh :D
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
one possibility: you're just a rippling beast

You wouldn't say that if you saw my arms
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Re: What to wear to train shoulders in pool for wetsuit without wearing wetsuit? [Emilio] [ In reply to ]
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Emilio wrote:
Hi Nick,

You are getting nailed on your most recent post, but that is the nature of this forum. Truthfully, if you have not tried a T1 Wetsuit, you do not really know how much freedom our two-piece design offers. Get in touch with me if you are interested in learning how different life can be. Heck look at what Slowman wears and he can probably get any wetsuit he wants.

https://www.desotosport.com/collections/first-wave

Emilio talked me into upgrading to a T1 First Wave last year, and I have no regrets. I had also assumed that when using a wetsuit my shoulders were just going to be more sore then when swimming without. However, even after my very first swim in the First Wave, the unexpected lack of soreness and swelling in my shoulders and upper back was very apparent.

I am not a fast swimmer and I don't think this suit made me any faster per se (although I did have some good times last year), but I was sooo much more comfortable on the bike in aero last year then in previous years. It was a really unexpected and welcome benefit.

I have experience with both the T1 Black Pearl and First Wave. But the softness and flexibility of the First Wave rubber was a game changer for me. I would highly recommend the slightly more expensive First Wave if you are interested and trying to decide between the two.
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