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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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There would not be a United States or Constitution as we know it if we had to write it today. We are too fragmented as a country, New England would never agree with the South, nor would California agree with the Midwest states.

We would look more like Europe without the ECU agreement, with borders between distinct nations. One nations would be the southern states, beginning somewhere in Virginia and run westward to the Mississippi or so and then down to either around the Texas state line or perhaps the Louisiana state line. California might be included in Oregon and Washington but I am not sure it would include Nevada or Arizona.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America




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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [vecchia capra] [ In reply to ]
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While we tend to see difference through the lens of Red/Blue states and geographical divides, the urban/rural divide is beginning to dominate, and is largely determining political transitions in many states. Virginia and North Carolina are increasingly purple, due to migrations to urban areas. Same with Georgia/Atlanta, Nevada/Las Vegas, Colorado/Denver. This is likely to continue, and eventually swamp present policy debates.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:


While we tend to see difference through the lens of Red/Blue states and geographical divides, the urban/rural divide is beginning to dominate, and is largely determining political transitions in many states. Virginia and North Carolina are increasingly purple, due to migrations to urban areas. Same with Georgia/Atlanta, Nevada/Las Vegas, Colorado/Denver. This is likely to continue, and eventually swamp present policy debates.

It will depend upon how the future goes. If it were a simple divorcement of the union, much like California has tried to put secession up for vote, then it might be though out and rationally divided. More likely it will be a complete and abrupt end due to civil war or a complete failure of our government (everyone picks up their marbles and quits after fist fights in Congress), in which case the state government at that point will decide unilaterally and the rest of the states (and the people in the big cities), will have no say. Yes, Texas might be trending toward the left but if the stuff hits the fan, the voters in Austin and Houston become meaningless.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [vecchia capra] [ In reply to ]
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More likely it will be a complete and abrupt end due to civil war or a complete failure of our government ....

Not seeing it at all. How do Florida/Ohio/North Carolina/Virginia or any other purple states divide? There are regional divides, but they are being swamped by urban/rural differences. Does Atlanta secede from Georgia, or vice versa? Does Nevada secede from Las Vegas? While there is certainly rancor on both sides, from a historical perspective there is monumental arguments over relatively miniscule policy differences. In fact, when the tribal rhetoric is stripped away, policy on either side is shot through with inconsistencies.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [ayontz] [ In reply to ]
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ayontz wrote:
2nd amendment is fine as is. for those who don't know the full and complete text, here it is:

"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."



Incorrect.
Words matter.
The amendment reads: “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

Greater legal minds than mine can debate what the amendment actually means, but if we are going to rewrite things, we need to start by analyzing the FULL and COMPLETE texts.[/quote]
The OP said write, not rewrite :-)
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
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More likely it will be a complete and abrupt end due to civil war or a complete failure of our government ....


Not seeing it at all. How do Florida/Ohio/North Carolina/Virginia or any other purple states divide? There are regional divides, but they are being swamped by urban/rural differences. Does Atlanta secede from Georgia, or vice versa? Does Nevada secede from Las Vegas? While there is certainly rancor on both sides, from a historical perspective there is monumental arguments over relatively miniscule policy differences. In fact, when the tribal rhetoric is stripped away, policy on either side is shot through with inconsistencies.

If the stuff hits the fan the power of the cities will be gone in less than a week. The purple will be gone, all that will left is the us versus them, and the character of the regions are still embedded very strongly outside of the cities. Tribal forces will increase, not decrease. All you need to do is look at how we were before, humanity has not changed nearly as much as people think, we are still the same humans that built the pyramids, the walls of Babylon and walked the plains of Africa.

The big dynamic for the cities during the first weeks will be the hordes of people fleeing the cities, where there will be no food, no safety and no hope. The freeways will be the routes outward, but it will be a very dangerous time for the city dwellers as the safety net gets ripped away.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [vecchia capra] [ In reply to ]
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vecchia capra wrote:
The big dynamic for the cities during the first weeks will be the hordes of people fleeing the cities, where there will be no food, no safety and no hope. The freeways will be the routes outward, but it will be a very dangerous time for the city dwellers as the safety net gets ripped away.
Hopefully this never comes to pass but a friend and I were talking about this over the weekend, the political divides locally and nationally.. he's more a centrist than I am.. but we agreed that in a war-like scenario if the reds (not commie reds.. hehe) choked off a few major cities it'd be over. Fast. The country has got to turn things around and find middle ground. There will be a tipping point if the course is not reversed.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
vecchia capra wrote:
The big dynamic for the cities during the first weeks will be the hordes of people fleeing the cities, where there will be no food, no safety and no hope. The freeways will be the routes outward, but it will be a very dangerous time for the city dwellers as the safety net gets ripped away.

Hopefully this never comes to pass but a friend and I were talking about this over the weekend, the political divides locally and nationally.. he's more a centrist than I am.. but we agreed that in a war-like scenario if the reds (not commie reds.. hehe) choked off a few major cities it'd be over. Fast. The country has got to turn things around and find middle ground. There will be a tipping point if the course is not reversed.

Nice try, the ones actually advocating for the civil war to begin isn't the Red side, its the anarchists who generally vote for the other side if they bother to vote at all (or at least their parents do). Another group that is quietly working in that direction are the Muslims, who have overtly stated that is their goal, along with describing exactly how they intend to obtain that goal, and are succeeding by taking over territory, getting elected into office and demanding "respect" but failing to respect the countries they are taking over.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [vecchia capra] [ In reply to ]
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Another group that is quietly working in that direction are the Muslims, who have overtly stated that is their goal, along with describing exactly how they intend to obtain that goal, and are succeeding by taking over territory, getting elected into office and demanding "respect" but failing to respect the countries they are taking over.


So much relentless stupid in one post. The Muslims???? Anarchists??? Do you even know a single person who fits that description? Geez, you really drove off a cliff....

Okay, you right, there is clearly going to be a civil war because of ... the Muslims! There's this guy in New Zealand who is completely down with this....

Please, unplug whatever "news source" you listen to...
Last edited by: oldandslow: Mar 26, 19 8:02
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [patf] [ In reply to ]
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patf wrote:
velocomp wrote:
torrey wrote:
velocomp wrote:
It is a great exercise. The idea that you have to compromise if you want the states to participate. You would lose more than 50% of the states just by trying to get rid of the Electoral college. Even now, if the get rid of it, I think you will have a problem keeping the country together. (I don't think states can really opt out of the US, but you will have problems.

As for guns. Same thing. You will not get people who use guns legally for recreation, hunting, etc, in rural settings agreeing to give up their guns. Just as you will not see people in cities giving up their rights to abortions. (Wow what a difference in perspective right there...)

Are you aware of the move to short cruit the electoral college underway that doesn't require 2/3? The idea is that if you can get enough states (more than 50% of the electoral college) to buy into an "gentlemen's agreement" you can replace it. Once in place each of the state would put their full electoral college selection behind the winner of the popular vote. At the moment states with 2/3 of the needed 270 have laws to support the initiative.


Yes, my state joined that. But you also have to imagine that if republicans ever get control in those states they will just reverse it.

I think if they do succeed, you may see a significant legal challenge. In most of these states, the state legislature agreed and it was not out to a vote of the people. (at least that is how it went down in Colorado.)

My state just passed it and Gov said he will sign it. So maybe by 2020 we will have it. Can you imagine what will happen if Trump would win again under this? Maybe if any republican wins, but especially if Trump. Heads would spin. There would be all kinds of state governments in the Blue states rushing to pass new laws to follow their states voter's choice. I read the law and I don't see anything in it that would stop that unless there are other laws saying you can't change the method of picking delegates after the election.

I’ll wait until it gets to the Supreme Court. It’s debatable if it is even legal.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
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Another group that is quietly working in that direction are the Muslims, who have overtly stated that is their goal, along with describing exactly how they intend to obtain that goal, and are succeeding by taking over territory, getting elected into office and demanding "respect" but failing to respect the countries they are taking over.


So much relentless stupid in one post. The Muslims???? Anarchists??? Do you even know a single person who fits that description? Geez, you really drove off a cliff....

Okay, you right, there is clearly going to be a civil war because of ... the Muslims! There's this guy in New Zealand who is completely down with this....

Please, unplug whatever "news source" you listen to...

Just wait until the anarchists get organized, then you'll see. Wait ... shit, that isn't going to work.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Just wait until the anarchists get organized, then you'll see. Wait ... shit, that isn't going to work.

Thanks goodness! Otherwise, they would have bought up all of the bump stocks. Maybe they can bum a bunch of them off of their Muslim friends....
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
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Another group that is quietly working in that direction are the Muslims, who have overtly stated that is their goal, along with describing exactly how they intend to obtain that goal, and are succeeding by taking over territory, getting elected into office and demanding "respect" but failing to respect the countries they are taking over.


So much relentless stupid in one post. The Muslims???? Anarchists??? Do you even know a single person who fits that description? Geez, you really drove off a cliff....

Okay, you right, there is clearly going to be a civil war because of ... the Muslims! There's this guy in New Zealand who is completely down with this....

Please, unplug whatever "news source" you listen to...

Wrong answer kimosabe, there are a ton of documents that have been translated that describe exactly how the Muslims take over countries by immigration and subverting their own laws, regulations and systems. Even the Koran has that information and excuses the failure to keep Muslim standards while performing those functions. I have visited some of those countries and spoken with locals on how it happened. It is currently happening in Europe and the US, although we are less far along the road than Europe is. When they tell the local native women and girls that they HAVE to wear a headscarf in order to not be sexually assaulted, that nation is well on the path to either become a Muslim nation or a civil war to stop that end result.

As far as anarchists go, I guess you don't have a TV or somehow are reading this without having an internet connection because a bunch of those people (more than 600) took over a neighborhood in Portland last month, armed with semi automatic rifles (notice I did not use the assault weapon description, which is reserved only for journalists describing school crimes).
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [vecchia capra] [ In reply to ]
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Wrong answer kimosabe, there are a ton of documents that have been translated that describe exactly how the Muslims take over countries by immigration and subverting their own laws, regulations and systems. Even the Koran has that information and excuses the failure to keep Muslim standards while performing those functions. I have visited some of those countries and spoken with locals on how it happened. It is currently happening in Europe and the US, although we are less far along the road than Europe is. When they tell the local native women and girls that they HAVE to wear a headscarf in order to not be sexually assaulted, that nation is well on the path to either become a Muslim nation or a civil war to stop that end result.



Again with the Muslims! Do you personally know a single Muslim in your area? Your post has gone from relentlessly stupid to unhinged (we are soooooooo close to becoming a Muslim nation, huh? ;). Substitute any other race or religion for "Muslim", and please look at the path you skipping down. It utterly sucks, especially when there are so many examples in history to warn you.

Back to the conflict in this country, it isn't about any law-abiding small minority, or a couple hundred extremists (either antifa or those sad-sack white nationalists which make random appearances in the news), it is about you and I. This is the internet, and we can take whatever position we wish to. You have a right to say whatever stupid thing you want, and I have a right to call you on it. Assuming that your views are real, maybe you are the random whacko in your area (every place has them, I have this cousin....). Maybe the garbage you spout is "mainstream" where you live (a truly sobering thought). Where I live, the prevailing view pretty much shared across the entire political spectrum is that your ramblings are that of a sad, hopelessly bigotted person, regurgitating some tired talk radio monologue that has been yelled endlessly at you for decades.

Back to the OP, clearly a constitution written today would have to specifically spell out "No Muslims allowed!!" Right?

Have a nice day.
Last edited by: oldandslow: Mar 26, 19 18:08
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
Why do you need a written constitution? We don't have one and it's working seamlessly

Hi AndrewMC,
for some reason I thought you were from Down Under, and I know we do have a Constitution, and I believe only Israel and New Zealand are the only democratic countries that don't.
Mind you, the Australian one is a document that can be changed, by referendum, not by party politics, thank goodness.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
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Wrong answer kimosabe, there are a ton of documents that have been translated that describe exactly how the Muslims take over countries by immigration and subverting their own laws, regulations and systems. Even the Koran has that information and excuses the failure to keep Muslim standards while performing those functions. I have visited some of those countries and spoken with locals on how it happened. It is currently happening in Europe and the US, although we are less far along the road than Europe is. When they tell the local native women and girls that they HAVE to wear a headscarf in order to not be sexually assaulted, that nation is well on the path to either become a Muslim nation or a civil war to stop that end result.



Again with the Muslims! Do you personally know a single Muslim in your area? Your post has gone from relentlessly stupid to unhinged (we are soooooooo close to becoming a Muslim nation, huh? ;). Substitute any other race or religion for "Muslim", and please look at the path you skipping down. It utterly sucks, especially when there are so many examples in history to warn you.

Back to the conflict in this country, it isn't about any law-abiding small minority, or a couple hundred extremists (either antifa or those sad-sack white nationalists which make random appearances in the news), it is about you and I. This is the internet, and we can take whatever position we wish to. You have a right to say whatever stupid thing you want, and I have a right to call you on it. Assuming that your views are real, maybe you are the random whacko in your area (every place has them, I have this cousin....). Maybe the garbage you spout is "mainstream" where you live (a truly sobering thought). Where I live, the prevailing view pretty much shared across the entire political spectrum is that your ramblings are that of a sad, hopelessly bigotted person, regurgitating some tired talk radio monologue that has been yelled endlessly at you for decades.

Back to the OP, clearly a constitution written today would have to specifically spell out "No Muslims allowed!!" Right?

Have a nice day.

I know a lot of Muslims, I work with them in the US and I have worked with them overseas. I have read the documents describing how they took over in Malaysia, Indonesia and are currently taking over countries in Africa. They use the same techniques in each situation, and if you would do some research you would see that too. Many of those people remarked how stupid we and the Europeans are because we never bothered to understand Islam and how they were "colonizing" the world the way that Europe colonized the world.

As far as me being bigoted, bite me. I work with people of every stripe, and treat individuals with respect. What I don't respect are governments and political groups, and I can hate them without hating all of those in those groups. My Constitution would not say "No Muslims", but it WOULD say that no laws would be added or supersede the rights and rules in that Constitution and specifically prohibit religious laws like those being applied in Dearborn, MI and in parts of Minnesota. I would also give the Government the right to deport anyone who openly advocated or was found to advocate the overthrow of our Government, which has been published in local newspapers in several newspapers in the US in the last year.
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Re: What would the constitution look like if we wrote it today? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Honestly I don't think there would be enough bi-partisan support to even come close to get one passed
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