Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [runner66] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 19 10:09

Post #51 of 69 (1559 views)

runner66 wrote:

I can give you one reason why some swimmers do not learn flip turns. At least for me, an AOS, I am a slow swimmer. I have tried to learn them, but just doing a somersault in the water creates immediate dizziness. It is bad enough that I have to stop and take a minute, and sometimes have to stop swimming. It is not a pleasant feeling. Someone suggested that I close my eyes, have tried that, but it did not help.

I would really like to learn flip turns, but I have not been able to fix the dizziness problem to get over the hump.

I suspect you can get over this normal-sounding dizziness hump with a little practice with focusing on flipping faster and harder. I too got super dizzy for my first few months with flip turns, particularly when i was doing them slowly and not accelerating into them. They actually get easier the faster you go (into them) and the harder/faster you flip in the water.

Of course, if you have some sort of vestibular problem, that's a whole different ballgame, but what you're describing does sound sort of normal for anyone learning flip turns early on.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 19 10:41

Post #52 of 69 (1546 views)

If you are a lousy flip turner you are probably causing and oxygen deficit each time you flip turn. Overall I think it would slow you down.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [spockwaslen] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 21 15:22

Post #53 of 69 (1297 views)

spockwaslen wrote:

If you are a lousy flip turner you are probably causing and oxygen deficit each time you flip turn. Overall I think it would slow you down.

Then be a good flip turner!!

(Am I doing this right, JasonInHalifax and Dr Tigerchick?)

Seriously though, rewiring the brain/body/O2 system is HARD!! I am one-week into flipturn school, and I Already See The Light. (And I don't mean the lights of the ceiling when I flip.) Sure, I'm gasping, and I'm slower than my micro-break (ie open turn) times. But I'll get better.

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [Skuj] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 21 17:56

Post #54 of 69 (1221 views)

If you're struggling with oxygen deficit with your flip turns work on doing them really fast, accelerate into the turn, flip as quick as you can and breakout straight away i.e no underwater dolphin kick. Even if you're swimming slow and feeling fatigued, you can still work those flip turns hard. You see slow swimmers do these uber slow flip turns and they are underwater for so long, no wonder they are gassed!

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 21 5:00

Post #55 of 69 (1127 views)

Yeah, I do flip turns. The guy in the next lane does open turns. He is still faster than me.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [Skuj] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 21 5:18

Post #56 of 69 (1111 views)

Skuj wrote:

spockwaslen wrote:

If you are a lousy flip turner you are probably causing and oxygen deficit each time you flip turn. Overall I think it would slow you down.

Then be a good flip turner!!

(Am I doing this right, JasonInHalifax and Dr Tigerchick?)
.

You got it!!

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Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 21 5:24

Post #57 of 69 (1105 views)

Over 40 years of diligent daily practice as an adult onset swimmer I have become a FOP swimmer (First of pack age group most times) and have NEVER done flip turns. Flip turns aggravate an old football injury, so I don't do them. What that has allowed me to do are "micro sprints" off the wall each time to catch up. I truly believe that this is one thing that has really made my swim strong. Test it and give it a try . . . you'll be surprised at the results.

David
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Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [david] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 21 5:29

Post #58 of 69 (1097 views)

david wrote:

Over 40 years of diligent daily practice as an adult onset swimmer I have become a FOP swimmer (First of pack age group most times) and have NEVER done flip turns. Flip turns aggravate an old football injury, so I don't do them. What that has allowed me to do are "micro sprints" off the wall each time to catch up. I truly believe that this is one thing that has really made my swim strong. Test it and give it a try . . . you'll be surprised at the results.

I've bolded the relevant part for becoming a FOP swimmer....

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Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [david] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 21 5:38

Post #59 of 69 (1088 views)

david wrote:

Over 40 years of diligent daily practice as an adult onset swimmer I have become a FOP swimmer (First of pack age group most times) and have NEVER done flip turns. Flip turns aggravate an old football injury, so I don't do them. What that has allowed me to do are "micro sprints" off the wall each time to catch up. I truly believe that this is one thing that has really made my swim strong. Test it and give it a try . . . you'll be surprised at the results.

.
.
I don't do them either and the sky hasn't fallen....
.
.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Floating Debris

May 18, 21 10:09

Post #60 of 69 (944 views)

lightheir wrote:

runner66 wrote:

I can give you one reason why some swimmers do not learn flip turns. At least for me, an AOS, I am a slow swimmer. I have tried to learn them, but just doing a somersault in the water creates immediate dizziness. It is bad enough that I have to stop and take a minute, and sometimes have to stop swimming. It is not a pleasant feeling. Someone suggested that I close my eyes, have tried that, but it did not help.

I would really like to learn flip turns, but I have not been able to fix the dizziness problem to get over the hump.

I suspect you can get over this normal-sounding dizziness hump with a little practice with focusing on flipping faster and harder. I too got super dizzy for my first few months with flip turns, particularly when i was doing them slowly and not accelerating into them. They actually get easier the faster you go (into them) and the harder/faster you flip in the water.

Of course, if you have some sort of vestibular problem, that's a whole different ballgame, but what you're describing does sound sort of normal for anyone learning flip turns early on.

The dizziness and vertigo I experience makes this something I will never practice. And thus, my name remains applicable.

Last edited by: Floating Debris: May 18, 21 10:10

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [david] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 21 12:55

Post #61 of 69 (906 views)

david wrote:

FOP swimmer (First of pack age group most times) and have NEVER done flip turns. Flip turns aggravate an old football injury, so I don't do them. What that has allowed me to do are "micro sprints" off the wall each time to catch up.

I do not know what that means. You win your age group?

You are committed to the sport and work hard at it. You've had some success. Congratulations. And you have legitimate reasons not to do flip turns. But for what it is worth, swimming hard in and out of the wall is a common thing discussed at swim practice. It is actually easier to do when you do turns.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 21 17:05

Post #62 of 69 (860 views)

Flip turns scare me. (said in squeaky child voice - think Ralph Wiggum)

AOS swimmer and a bad one at that. I have vestibular issues from a (mostly) removed brain tumor and I had terrible breath control until recently.

But I've been working and getting better (still slow though)

I joined a masters swim class a week ago, was too intimidated to join sooner. As bad as I am, the first thing the coach wanted me to learn was flip turns. His almost exact words were:

"Dont tell me you're a triathlete and dont have walls to push off in open water. I know you have a lot to work on and I dont want to overwhelm you. This is what I want you to learn first"

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 21 21:16

Post #63 of 69 (812 views)

If saving myself a minute or two in a workout were the low-hanging fruit of my swimming problems, I would be fortunate man indeed.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 21 21:33

Post #64 of 69 (799 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Swimmer: “when are we going to practice turns?”

Coach: “you just had 200 opportunities to practice your turns over the last 2 hours”

As someone who has been trying to get better at flip turns for a while now, after seeing this comment I forced myself to flip at the end of every single length during my swim yesterday, rather than just every now and then. And finally, it feels comfortable. So thanks!

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 21 3:57

Post #65 of 69 (771 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Economist wrote:

MBaier wrote:

More than the added distance it is about the breath control work imo.

This is a big one for me. Historically I did not do flip turns, but once I started I had to learn to breath differently, more efficiently.

As for speed, not sure I buy into it making folks faster. When I did wall turns I still finished within FOP. With flip-turns, I haven't really moved up at all. I am a more efficient swimmer due to breathing, but not necessarily faster. The one guy that always seems to take top swim spot is a wall turner.

Unless your mechanics of swimming are 100% perfected, flip-turn should be low on the radar of things to work on.

Note that I never said that they “will” make you faster. Just that you have the opportunity to do more work in a given unit of time. If you take advantage of that opportunity, that’s where the marginal gains come.

As for working on stroke mechanics, no one has a perfect stroke. I’m actually in the middle of deconstructing my entire freestyle stroke to try and find additional efficiency and speed gains. You can do flip turns AND work on your stroke at the same time. Shocking, I know.

Also, this falls into the territory of marginal gains. It’s not going to take a MOP to FOP. It’s going to get the athlete a few seconds on the swim. How much? who knows. But getting in more work is generally going to lead to greater improvement than less work.

But you are doing less work per unit, right? Have you done that comparison math?

I’m not advocating against flip turns in general but possibly against your hypothesis that you get more “work” in.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 21 6:45

Post #66 of 69 (732 views)

I do them (was a D1 swimmer years ago) and sometimes don't do them. I have seen no difference in my open water swim times. About the only thing they do is make your swimming rhythm in the pool a little bit better, but that doesn't really matter in open water.

Flip turns/or not, are a personal preference..........nothing more IMO. Pool races are a totally different matter.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 21 8:45

Post #67 of 69 (706 views)

DFW_Tri wrote:

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Economist wrote:

MBaier wrote:

More than the added distance it is about the breath control work imo.

This is a big one for me. Historically I did not do flip turns, but once I started I had to learn to breath differently, more efficiently.

As for speed, not sure I buy into it making folks faster. When I did wall turns I still finished within FOP. With flip-turns, I haven't really moved up at all. I am a more efficient swimmer due to breathing, but not necessarily faster. The one guy that always seems to take top swim spot is a wall turner.

Unless your mechanics of swimming are 100% perfected, flip-turn should be low on the radar of things to work on.

Note that I never said that they “will” make you faster. Just that you have the opportunity to do more work in a given unit of time. If you take advantage of that opportunity, that’s where the marginal gains come.

As for working on stroke mechanics, no one has a perfect stroke. I’m actually in the middle of deconstructing my entire freestyle stroke to try and find additional efficiency and speed gains. You can do flip turns AND work on your stroke at the same time. Shocking, I know.

Also, this falls into the territory of marginal gains. It’s not going to take a MOP to FOP. It’s going to get the athlete a few seconds on the swim. How much? who knows. But getting in more work is generally going to lead to greater improvement than less work.

But you are doing less work per unit, right? Have you done that comparison math?

I’m not advocating against flip turns in general but possibly against your hypothesis that you get more “work” in.

how are you getting in less work per unit (and per unit of what?) the entire premise is that you have the potential to get in more work per unit of time.

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Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 21 8:53

Post #68 of 69 (701 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

DFW_Tri wrote:

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Economist wrote:

MBaier wrote:

More than the added distance it is about the breath control work imo.

This is a big one for me. Historically I did not do flip turns, but once I started I had to learn to breath differently, more efficiently.

As for speed, not sure I buy into it making folks faster. When I did wall turns I still finished within FOP. With flip-turns, I haven't really moved up at all. I am a more efficient swimmer due to breathing, but not necessarily faster. The one guy that always seems to take top swim spot is a wall turner.

Unless your mechanics of swimming are 100% perfected, flip-turn should be low on the radar of things to work on.

Note that I never said that they “will” make you faster. Just that you have the opportunity to do more work in a given unit of time. If you take advantage of that opportunity, that’s where the marginal gains come.

As for working on stroke mechanics, no one has a perfect stroke. I’m actually in the middle of deconstructing my entire freestyle stroke to try and find additional efficiency and speed gains. You can do flip turns AND work on your stroke at the same time. Shocking, I know.

Also, this falls into the territory of marginal gains. It’s not going to take a MOP to FOP. It’s going to get the athlete a few seconds on the swim. How much? who knows. But getting in more work is generally going to lead to greater improvement than less work.

But you are doing less work per unit, right? Have you done that comparison math?

I’m not advocating against flip turns in general but possibly against your hypothesis that you get more “work” in.

how are you getting in less work per unit (and per unit of what?) the entire premise is that you have the potential to get in more work per unit of time.

You are taking 1-2 strokes less per length with a flip turn. So, if you do flip turns, you may get an extra 100 meters in, but you have taken less strokes per each of those 100 meters throughout your workout.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 21 8:56

Post #69 of 69 (696 views)

2 fewer strokes would put you too far from the wall to turn.

you're probably taking the same number of pulls, and one less arm recovery.

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