Its a classic Newtonian physics calculator. Ie, frictionless point mass. Perfectly normal.

So, just what I've observed over time......

In the group ride or hammer ride, I'd say that unless it's an A+ roadie group where you're expected to pull on the front at OVER 300 watts then the aero hardware isn't that important. It's more important to be flexible enough to get in the drops or into a Belgian aero position on the hoods and hold your power when it is your turn. I'd say I'd rather see making sure you've got a good tire/tube setup instead for CRR and handling.

Just cover the bases.........decent roadie bike fit, well fitting kit, decent tires/tubes/tubeless/tubs.

Next..........weight (well, w/kg ratio).

Not my bike kg's, but me. I weight 69 kg. That's not even that small. But, it is easily in the smaller % of even the faster group rides. As soon as it is 4% grade or more for more than just a minute then it gets kind of ugly pretty quick.

It's not just the longer hills, on the shorter rollers the big boys are having to burn a LOT more effort.

Here's an example, let's take a 4% avg grade hill for 3 minutes....I can do that without blowing up at about 350w. So, for me that's ~5 w/kg. The guys on the group ride that are a mere 5kg more at 75kg or so will need to put out 375w. And lastly, those average to diesel train size guys at probably 80 to 85 kg.....yeah, that'll need 400 to 425w for 3 minutes just to not lose time.

It doesn't hurt smaller guys a whole lot having lower "watts" in the w/kg balance when the hole they punch in the air for aero is a good bit smaller from both being smaller and likely more flexible.

Next, I notice a lot of our hammer ride folks that have not ever raced OR haven't practiced riding really close with a trusted training buddy. They tend to not be able to hold a wheel as closely or consistently. They're easily a 1/2 to whole bike length behind folks. Either due to experience, fear, or not understanding. They also don't value how much it saves you to burn a little extra energy NOW to hold that wheel really well versus constantly sucking extra wind and closing the gap.

Lastly, those calculators are OK. I only really consult the good aero calculators when doing a "stink test" of data from a time trial ride.

Oh, back to that theoretical "3 minute hill" on the group ride.........here's the output of the "bikecalculator" site:

4% avg grade hill, 3 minutes minimum time
Rider at 69kg and 5w/kg: 3 minutes
Rider at 75kg and same power: 3 min 5 sec
Rider at 80kg and same power: 3 min 10 sec
Rider at 85kg and same power: 3 min 16 sec

I'd assume the power to be a touch less and the weight a touch more as usually, on said 3 minute hill I gain about an entire minute.

Most folks who only group rides and don't race usually don't have a very repeatable VO2 engine. They don't need it. They can hill sprint or pull a gap once, maybe twice. But force them to do it a third time OR make them do it for a longer VO2 effort and you're likely to blow them up.

That's my survive and thrive tips for faster group rides or hammer rides.

If you want to hang on to fast group rides longer (or ideally for the whole ride), then don't worry so much about aero things. You should spend very little to no time at the front of the group if you're constantly getting dropped...save your energy (and train) for the moments that matter...when the screws get turned. As mentioned above, focus on good rolling resistance (tires/tubes), being as light as possible (yourself), and training VO2 type efforts.

I see a lot of triathletes join roadie group rides. Some of them are very strong cyclists...very capable of hanging on the entire ride. But the reason some of them will eventually get popped off is because they don't know how to "read" a group ride...or a race for that matter. They sit in the draft doing 50-75% of FTP and they get anxious that the ride is too easy. So you see a lot of them go to the front and set a hard tempo on the flats. Like they want to "prove" themselves to the group. That's all well and good, but roadies don't always care if you can set a hard tempo while they're all soft pedaling behind you. Roadies are all thinking about the next hill or sprint point where the real action is going to happen. So if you're not capable of sticking in at those points, then don't waste any energy setting tempo on the flats. Just take a short turn and get back in the draft. Honestly, roadies don't really care how much work you do or don't do...so long as you ride safely with them and don't disrupt the flow of the group. Of course, they don't like the guy who sits in the back all day and totally dishes out the pain on everyone during the hard parts. But if all you're trying to do is keep up with the group, and not drop the group...they generally don't care if you take short or minimal pulls.

Once you learn how to "read" how the group is riding...where you should be riding easy and where you should be preparing to go really hard...it becomes a lot easier to hang on. The triathlete mentality of going steady hard for the entire ride is a losing formula in a real group ride. Doesn't matter how aero or light you are. Unless of course you're just simply stronger than everyone else hands down. But that wasn't the preface of this post.

Your group rides read like my group rides; except, you are better rider. I used to race so I know when I am drifting off the wheel in front of me. If they stake the watts at way more than I can do for 1-5 minutes, I can get gapped. Usually their hard efforts on the flat don't last more than 5 minutes so if I can hang on...

You are right about long uphills being friendlier. However, sometimes I am pedaling on the downhills to keep up with some heavier guys with bigger engines.

Thank you for your experience and tips.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Yours is a good read and advice on what's going on during a group road ride.

I don't want to come off as a wheel sucker so I usually guilt myself into taking a short pull at the front regardless of how far I'm in over my head. A short pull to me means - don't let the pace drop. And, don't take so long a pull so that I can't swing back on the last wheel.

I've also learned to have someone about my ability behind me after my turn at the front. Having the strong man reight behind me makes it tougher than I want after a pull out front.

When I was with a racing team we took short pulls at the front and would only take a long pull if we were going to sacrifice one for the team. Taking a long pull that doesn't sustain the pace is new to me. Like a triathlete, my preference would be to keep the effort more even and not favor those sprinters. lol

Hopefully the others don't mind as I'm seldom in the top half of anything that they race to during the ride.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.